Note Investing: June Q&A with Note Attorneys | Real Estate Notes Show

if the Association honored to take over could be enormous oftentimes we're dealing with loans with the default 800 8 9 10 and the same way the mortgage wasn't paid oftentimes Association was a table so you can factor in maintenance from past 8 10 years which is what the Association often times believe throws but the legislature in Florida enacted the statute which greatly reduces the amount that the association's are able to collect now oftentimes the association's don't honor the safe harbor unfortunately and it's certainly an issue of back-and-forth negotiating and unfortunately sometimes variation so each Association and their management company see with interpreting that statute differently but we certainly do our best and hasn't had a lot of success enforcing the safe harbor statute again there is Association throughout the state of Florida and iris and I know that when you go into a proposer it's not going well or is going well but you didn't secure safe harbor typically you'll actually start the foreclosure over to make sure safe harbors taken care of I'm not sure I understand the question we say not going well recorder maybe it's going well like the fact estates Arbor wasn't taken care of would you stop the foreclosure and backup to ensure safe harbor is final correctly and all the papers yes sir that definitely becomes a business decision on behalf of whoever on the loan at that title if the borrower is not confessing and the only issue is the Association and their ability to abide by the safe River statute then I certainly would consider starting over and that's a case-by-case basis it becomes a business decision if fires and work in every facet of the vault circling that's out there we work with individual investors on up to large hedge funds and national lenders as well as terms of performing foreclosures default servicing work and really anything in between so I've got a pretty diverse now it's a lot of different areas and work creatively sometimes to try to find us solutions to problems so I'm glad glad to be here tonight for about the beginning to a bully-free for it really keep the circle small Kyla I'm sure your neighbors arguing hearing David at the video thank you for this question we like a really nice Holden Barina I can get any we need a search engine is waiting for you over and you say oh yeah I'm the the Ohio foreclosure process you know again it's going to be dictated typically by your loan loan documents in most situations you have to send a notice of the fault letter the basically set for certain rights that are in the mortgage itself once that's been sent in 30 days fired then you're in a position where you can proceed with your foreclosure complaint under Ohio law we are required to essentially obtain a title search and obtain what we call a preliminary June conditional title report that basically certifies the accuracy of the title once once that's done we prepare the complaint we get everybody served they have 28 days to answer and then whether the primary defendants of answer were not depends on the next step if they have not answered that we can proceed with the fault judgment a motion for judgment we also have if they have answer then we would file a motion for summary judgment once contain the actual judgment at the ball or summary then we're in a position where we have to file an order of sale that's when the sheriff is directed to actually advertise appraised and smell the property it's set for sale and and then once the property sells the next stage is is the confirmation stage where an entry gets filed with the court approving the sale and approving the distribution of the funds and then shortly thereafter you know once the funds are paid in to the sheriff there will be a deed that will issue out there so in general terms that's that's the process I'm licensed in Michigan and Kentucky you want those states - yeah the Kentucky process is essentially very similar to the to the ohai process there are some slight changes but essentially it's the same thing Michigan is different in the sense that it is a non you judicial state so you can essentially foreclose on a property really can't get a money judgment if that's what you're looking for but if you're looking for just foreclosure that can be accomplished in a very short period of time the only problem you have in Michigan is even though you get a foreclosure done in three to four months maybe even shorter than that if you have a longer Redemption period out there which is a six to six months so those are those are the other states kind of in a nutshell I'll really go back attention oh that's our guest in question would I I didn't hear the question all that or repetitive I want them to come back for redemption oh I don't think that I have ever seen someone attempt to redeem when the question of child is real quick can you get a home or a sidewalk on the redemption period um well actually during the redemption period um you know you know it just depends where you're at oh yeah you could probably get a waiver that's going to be more of a title issue most title agencies in my experience are willing to close within the redemption period because the risk is generally so low I can add something about that in Florida I am a title agent and down here I think it's the applicable means that we most underwriters would closed during the redemption period you're saying you would close would not would not okay yeah we don't we don't typically have that problem here in Ohio most most will and in the other states too awesome so um I know Harris your video talk I self because you're not going to the computer but that's fine we'll just I can act like ping yuan on my new bring in bring it up mr.

Charlie Mac can you give us just smell to the states you can invest in it and what timelines you look for you're not attorney but you can kind of give faces please know when I say I'm not an attorney I manage a considerable amount of them and know just as much if not more than quite a few attorneys but states in which we operate or references non-judicial foreclosure states which means that our primary goal is to stay out of court the timelines are traditionally very short from anywhere from approximately 60 days to a little over a hundred and twenty days the basic phases of non-judicial foreclosures notice the default notice of sale trustee sale that summarized as you're in default if you don't do something your property is going to go to sale your property is going to go to sale and then it actually goes to sale it's a very simple process that can get a little bit complicated but once again the better informed and educated one happens to be the traditionally the cheaper any fear it goes awesome thank you very much I'm gonna go back to Poland ah one of the questions they were it seemed to be very heavily interested is the estate of how much concern is there when you're foreclosing on a property when there's an estate we're passing a probate situation not only you take off first on our end it's absolutely none it has zero relevance whether it since you state of somebody's deceased if it's traditionally in regards to noticing requirements as if it's in probate there should be documents recorded as to the additional individuals that may be required to be noticed but it does not delay forebear hinder the foreclosure process in any way shape or form awesome uh house what's your experience with dealing with estate issues yeah so we see them all the time unfortunately it does not really deliver later on I think we got notice with an amortization so how a little more and more choosing up with watching audio per second be back now yes yep so the board and get notice of the lawsuit and have an opportunity to respond to the lawsuit depending on how the parlor title to the property if the warranty deed transferring title to the borrower created some rights of survivorship is automatically to the other party on the knees absolute that language is really meant to fit some research to find out in the heirs of the borrower's are that now own that property have interest in the property and for our purposes you could get foreclosed out oftentimes we don't have that information and we have to have a guardian ad litem appointed to do some research to find those people and let us know how they're affected so it may be a little bit more expensive at the point of guardian ad litem anywhere from 200 to 700 dollars for that guardian and it does cause another 30 or 60 day delay in terms of the closure process great um I'm going to go back to poll again um so read the question if it's in probate just think decorate need to be notified in in Florida yet any thought that would be actually there's a very good scenario the best case scenario is that there's another party on the deed and writing survivorship language on MIDI the next best scenario is that there is an actual probate estate open and a personal representative and reason what they're called in Florida or an executor as you may know it is appointed in that case we would certainly speed up the process and have all the appropriate information in order to notify the areas of the bar would be likely without appointing a guardian ad litem uh uh great um back to additional questions which were on a poll in one second when you're doing a game Lou what your form i-20 point of view and I'm gonna bring a mat as well when you'd being Lily's inside of a modification or can we still filed even low and still foreclose on property i'ma let Matt start off with that lease get mad I'm muted okay man what you're feeling about doing those kind of things those are a lot of different questions so doing the first one can you do a deed and low deed Lou with foreclosure its you can initiate the process but completing the deed in lieu would negate the existing foreclosure with very few exceptions and I'll mention those in just a second but with the deed in lieu that's traditionally where the homeowner signs the property over to oh stop the foreclosure process in doing so there's an estoppel affidavit sign there's a grant deed in the actual deed in lieu of foreclosure it is something that I highly recommend if you're not first with it or had been both several times have an attorney title company somebody handle the process for you it's very inexpensive and it's very very easy but doing a deed-in-lieu inside of a modification I don't know how that would be legal or how that would take place quite honestly as a deed-in-lieu is again signing the property over to the beneficiary without contingencies or anything else along those lines was there any other questions involved with them no just do it no modifications oh and it'll be real quick how to how to do the foreclosure than the Dean at the same time that's called putting an time Archer language within the deed-in-lieu and that's traditionally done so the title maids cleared at a later point in time in the in the event there's a deaf additional defects on character or defects on title which separate the the actual motive Couture the actual obligation from the properties at once again entitled may be cleared at a later point in time at when annotated awesome.i time from your point of view same questions we've talked about this before when Dean Liu inside modification agreement and file deal oh and still proposing from Ohio Michigan Kentucky yeah I I agree with master Spencer that I don't know how you can do a deed-in-lieu as part of the modification there's what you have one view on those two topics yeah gave a good explanation I think one thing I'd like to add from a little bit of a broader perspective the goal from a meeting room and generally a mortgage foreclosure case is to get more suitable title to the subject property you can get a deed from whomever the owner or whether it's the borrower or some third party maybe condo association or other party that somehow became entitled the question is whether that key conveys marketable title markable title means you have the ability to go sell that property tomorrow without having to do anything else satisfy any other compasses whether or not the deed conveys marketable title is an important issue if it does convey marginal title you're the owner and your organs essentially become meaningless because you would have clear title if there are other encumbrances besides the parties that you're getting the deed from whether that be the borrower or going out you need to consider mortgage alive so that you can propose those other interests out which is why the language that Matt and Tom reference about not merger is right on pointing to my thinking the most important language or very important language but it should be included in the meet and one other thing I'd like to edit while you may need to eliminate other liens that leads me to say you should never satisfy your mortgage until you're absolutely ready to go sell that property he is because in the event there is another Lena we're closed you lose that ability once your mortgages in emerge into the deed or satisfied so I always recommend not to recorded satisfaction of the mortgage to until and unless you absolutely happen which generally that the closing table when you're going to know the property so do you have any beliefs about that well it's a great point that the Harris is bringing up you know I think that that's very valid I think you just want to keep you know your mortgages off property don't don't go on release of knowing that you have control to release to those mortgages at a point in time because you just never know what's going to crop up or they are going to want to take a different direction with the property then then you thought so you leave your options open until you absolutely decided the direction I go and I would agree with Harris totally thank you I do not double closing your you're just a fishing spot on the course uh Harris I know this is a big thing in in Florida a safe harbor can you just give a quick kind of overlay of what they far-red and what the importance of the safe harbor is good yes absolutely safe harbor was very big topic in Florida foreclosures income is a very contested issue that we deal with almost daily safe harbor is a Florida Statute that controls when there is an association that that the properties are part of whether that be a condo association or a homeowner's association and basically the Florida Statute says that if the Association was properly joined in the foreclosure lawsuit and served with the foreclosure lawsuit generally speaking they must abide by the Florida statute which says the lender that foreclosing takes title only owes the association's the lesser of 12 months maintenance for one percent of the mortgage the safe harbor statute does not apply to third party purchasers at enclosure auction or someone that's not in a direct activity of the original lender of the first mortgage so the fees that you save you believe you may be able to negotiate a reasonable settlement with the Association then it may not be necessary to buy your foreclosure action over Kathy in the chat asked can you clarify if I buy a non-performing notes from a hedge fund am I covered under safe harbor as long as there's a direct link from the first mortgage from the original lender first mortgage to whoever the eventual party that owns the loan then yes you should be protected about it and then the last one is if HOH fight a safe harbor what's the percentage of women walking if an HOA loses then they are they paying lenders costs their work well if are they paying on what weight does the at the HEA how often these weights fight and win well it's just kind of what win is an arbitrary prayer honey how often do they get every penny that they're asking for it's probably unlikely more often than not there's going to be some reasonable settlement that the parties are going to reach so if the safe harbor says that the Association maybe do a thousand dollars for example and the Association believes the row ten thousand dollars rather than engage in protracted and expensive litigation oftentimes the parties may settle for two thousand or twenty five hundred dollars so define when is somewhat arbitrary like I said there's a black letter of the law and understoo decisions that he made as a result of all people's interpretation of the law and unfortunately associations their lawyers often interpret the statute differently than the plaintiffs and hundred lawyers won a whole pound of silver look at you the question so I'm going to jump in I know Matt is muted worries that Matthew giving access certainly the safe harbor doesn't exist in all states in the western United States and quite a few other ones as well there really is no such thing as safe harbor what I mean by that is that it's in statute very clearly recited that once the new owner become acquires title via perhaps a foreclosure sale the any HOA dues or anything else are completely wiped out is considered a subordinate lien there's a few states where the HOA dues are to be considered a super lien state and they take priority even over a first mortgage similar to that of taxes and I don't want to negate that but HOAs are something to consider but in a non judicial environment the HOAs if they have a lien that's recorded would be notified at the foreclosure action and after that they're out of luck awesome Tommy know your state's deal with the yes state barber do they know they they they don't I mean condo associations or associations in general have an obligation to file a lien definitely a subordinate lien and they the lien gifts gets wiped out like any other lane usually there's never enough money to reach them so that that typically is an addition for us wonderful thank you guys so I wanted to move on this is more for states in the Midwest talking about convey contract for deeds or land contracts um briefly talk about them what the benefit is what the attraction is to them and what worries we have and I'm answers question for those I don't know our state specific laws differ in every state Tom or Matthew one jump in there first are you familiar with country deeds I'm very familiar with contract for deeds please note that as a secured lender I do not engage in contract for deeds it's exceptionally rare purchasing contract for deeds and land contracts this the laws do vary by state they are not legal in all states and that's in regards to a something called unencumbered title in regards to contract for deeds and land contracts the underwriting is questionable the compliance is questionable which is why I'm personally a huge fan of them I like by an institutional paper but there is all different types just its price differently it's inside there's no bad notes or deeds there's just bad prices but in regards to contract in regards to contracts and land contracts the advantages are they can be easier to collect upon in terms of acquiring title as you're essentially just evicting the homeowner but there's a lot more to it and that it usually involves an attorney they're sometimes like in the state of California still need to foreclose on the homeowner so the cost savings and timelines today traditionally are a little bit shorter and cost savings a little bit more but in most non judicial states the costs are average around $2,500 or a little bit up for the entirety the foreclosure process sometimes a little bit more so that's kind of negligible Tom I know you're familiar with them as well can you jump in here and ad-lib it as well yeah you know under Ohio law what any land contract does is essentially the legal title to the property remains in the actual physical owner of the property and the the person who's buying it acquires equitable title which is the significant enough title to get you insurable interest and - it's a greater title interest than just being a tenant or a or a lessee and what happens is is it's really a a seller financing mechanism that you know the seller gets to retain title and it potentially avoid having to foreclose essentially under Ohio law and it's an statutory if you have a land contract or contract made that has defaulted if the debtor has up and the land contract has not run for more than five years you can do a four but you're proceeding which is essentially akin to an eviction it's very quick but if you acquire a 20% equity position in the property or the land installment contract has run for more than five years then the law requires that you go to a foreclosure situation which again is going to tie things up a lot in terms of timing so typically when we assist people in drafting these we caution them about acquiring large equity positions and going for long periods of time you know there are typically short term mechanisms allowing people who maybe have a credit lip that needy or so to get their credit back alert or they can refinance on their own to get out from underneath it the one the one concern I would have and I don't profess to be an expert at all there are events and questions that have been raised about whether or not land installment contracts are subject to the SAFE Act and whether or not even going back to you know whether or not you it's legal for an owner to do that I mean if I'm the owner of my own home and it's my personal residence that's probably not an issue but as a real estate investor if I am routinely using land contracts as a mechanism to sort of seller finance my properties there may be potential safe back violations out there um you hear people say well if you do you know three or less or five or less than a year that it's you know you should be okay to my knowledge there is no State Farm the safe back were for land contracts in terms of quantity so a lot of that is just some buddies of you know risk as to where they think people leave look so you know I think man installment contracts typically have their place as a short term mechanism I don't recommend them as you know something that should go for extended periods of time one of the questions in chat guys is what's the typical time frame for of course for sure of CFDs what's it what time period we looking at for forfeiting the rights of the loop of it so here so you're saying if you're a forfeiture situation how how long with that would that take to get title back correct um probably the obviously today's pops wonderful the next question again to is to be more of a question regarding what's going on recently for more than more common note investors here are questions regarding the do's and don'ts of borrower contact um recent leak a I won't get too much into it because legality of it there was a comment stated that what can we do is investors be about talking to borrowers and our rights about doing that I guess I'll take the first crack I think it's something that should be always concentrated in owners and onsen content actually when I can learn most importantly the farms represented by counsel they are represented somehow all correspondence because through that counsel if they're not on I still think you need to tread carefully Florida has not only their own FDCPA statutes but all countries are not fair spend a little more time hearing you just if you can speak a little closer to the link sure novel on will go backwards I put the recording logo Caparo is represented by Paco they all represent the Consul all corresponds in those who the council not replica borrowed its we are not representing her counsel I spoken to click close wings and communicating with the borrower there's all kinds of not only federal regulations but also Florida options protocol service collects impressions left require rigorous reflective on carbon sourcing public reference so there's a lot of classes that may open difference eternal mr.

natural hilarious going through portray what was in the violation of this company but generally you should brush up on make sure that nor actually will divert our okay you're a little muscle still but I switch off I let Tom cake cracker as well some what's your opinion I'm not sure if you've seen a new law that passed that came down yesterday it basically spoke about how Supreme Court secondary markets not subject to the FDCPA regulations yeah I you know I've taken a quick glance at it I haven't read the actual opinion I think that to some extent of you you had um a situation where you had debtors that were really trying to further extend the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act in a manner that I don't think it was ever intended I mean to make an argument which that case does is to say that because the secondary market buyer bought a debt that was once owned by somebody else that they're collecting a debt for another to me is a very good stretch I think the Supreme Court decision was a good decision and not expanding the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act to the night and you know because I think that the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act has been overused by debtors as a club for creditors and creditors or courts in the main the circuit courts typically are getting pretty frustrated with the amount of Little Italy litigation so now that that's sort of my commentary on the case I mean I think it's important though whenever anybody is contact better that you know typically I recommend to my clients just out an absolute abundance of caution that they typically file the guidelines under the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act you know there's the law is clear that if you you know give the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act notice and the person is not covered by the Fair Debt Act you haven't obligated yourself to comply with it so you know I'm a pretty cautious guy when it comes to this this sort of stuff and you know I always recommend that you know when you're contacting clients you let them know you're collecting at that what you're doing you're upfront with and get treated with common courtesy you don't you know be them over the head call them late at night call them early in the morning you kind of follow the guideline and and you'll you'll stay you know you won't have issues or you won't create potential issues for yourself that debtors can bring up as ridiculous defenses that are going to cause you to spend money that you don't have to again that's that's that's kind of my taking on it I take it conservatively and again I talk with clients and we talk through issues on a case by case basis thank you Tom Matt can you jump in now and tell us your point of view maybe of the article or of general knowledge of our ability to speak to borrowers using those quite a bit first and foremost were referencing secured debt as secured creditors what that means is we have rights and remedies far beyond just sending letters and listening to the homeowners problems a little bit more than the last person that owned this note as a secured creditor with exhaustive rights and remedies available you have the ability and the right to put the weight of the law behind you and that's as to the protections afforded within the secured documents whether it be a deed of trust or a mortgage in regards to speaking to the homeowners Lewis Carroll said it best do is say say as you do mean what you say and say what you mean these are very very basic context concepts I don't Bluff whenever I'm talking to homeowners as a foreclosure trustee when a homeowner calls in we let them know in the event they want to the rights that are afforded to them and any workout that may be possible is that the lenders good graces and they are directed to the lender for an alternative other than bringing the loan current in full and paying the loan off in full in regards to the actual recent decision that took place but honestly I don't think terrible not changed because there's always been very loose interpretations in regards to saying you owe me money but there's a profound impact upon others saying that you owe someone else money and this is servicers are still considered servicers when especially they're collecting on behalf of someone else but in regards to contacting a homeowner certainly it's possible but personally as one that holds a considerable amount mortgages nationwide when I'm in a state where I'm not a % familiar with various aspects or parts of the collection process I leave it up to the attorneys or I contact them to let them know in advance what I plan on doing as to whether or not that will cause more headaches for them later on down the line wonderful I'm going to go ahead very quickly and share what we're talking about that's online give me one second I [Music] can quote it if you need and if I emailed you a copy of the decision wonderful the internal decision not just each article great thank you so much I'll definitely forward over there one else so I'm going to go back to opening it up for questions there's a chat box if I'm going to get on the screen bring up some chat questions and you know again everyone involved here has especially as experience been around the block a few times and you can answer a lot of the questions so um I did have one question locally that was brought up and I'm going to bring it up first we had a private mortgage was felled by Morris held by a private individual that mortgage has been since paid off but not released is there a way a mechanism to force them to release the mortgage or to remove that lien if they're not doing it already I don't like you start off good start first put your thing on that server yeah Florida has a statute that requires a lender to record the satisfaction I think it's within sixty days of being paid offs for your 30 or 60 days and there's a provision that says if the lender doesn't we're dead not a lawsuit forcing them to do so depending on the size of the lender surprising that they haven't reported it's a deception nonetheless in Florida at least there is a statute on point that can allow you to enforce their violation of the statute by not recording satisfaction awesome uh Tom from your point of view anything add yeah I mean oh how does a little little different they have a similar statute that Harris was referencing done it in Ohio statute that's one like a 250 dollar penalty so it doesn't have much keep a couple things that we look at Ohio does have a statute that says basically if a mortgage has been on the books there's a 21 year measuring period it's either going to be from the date of the mortgage or if the mortgage specifies a due date when the note was to be paid in full that would be 21 years from the date of that due date it's it's released by operation of law so either 21 days from the day little more 21 years from the date of the mortgage for 21 years from the date that it was supposed to be paid off it's automatically released by law that works in some cases and in other cases you know sometimes you just can't find people or whatever then you're pretty much stuck with filing a quiet of wet title action alright I'm going to jump in Matt IAT you can add to that as well a quiet title action but also you can just have concerns company insure over the lien and that's the issue a title policy showing free and clear title regardless of whatever prior encumbrance is there because we're talking about some liens that may be in existence from the 1980s or before these things are out there bodies float to the surface once we start taking deep into title but what you're referencing is just a lender that is able to issue a zero demand but for some odd reason according to the general index that lien was not actually released and quiet title action or just contact the insurance company and see what they need to insure over it I'd like to jump in on elation I would be somewhat hesitant to just ensure over there's to be a lot more information provided to me as a title is Amanda providing for the underwriter before I can get authority to just ensure over a mortgage granted if you provide some proofs that you actually have wired money to a lender they acknowledge receipt of the lender may be different some correspondence that effect showing that the loans and paid off with just the actual satisfaction hasn't been recorded and it's a really old loan I think in that case you probably have a lot of invested the insurance issued but anything short of that is going to be not as simple as simply insuring over there's a lot of risk associated with these old mortgages that are wandering around and title agents and underwriters don't like had claims filed so it is a possibility but there's additional work that goes into that um there was another question regarding on bankruptcy which is a big thing in our space oh uh how often hell many times a year can a a borrower a file bankruptcy I guess I'll take a first crack I believe it's uh 180 days after the court order and each district in Florida has sort of different default rules I think in the Southern District of Florida the 180 day time period is the default and I think in the middle and upper district of florida you have to request that language to be input into the court orders that into that question i'm going to go ahead and let Tom yeah Mike and again I don't have the code it's going to be I want to look at it but my my recollection is is that there are there are there are threshold times and basically if you have serial filers and it's defined as the specific timeframes and I think you're under an eighty day timeframe right but if people file so many bankruptcies in a short period of time there is basically a provision of the Bankruptcy Code that doesn't allow the automatic state who attach to the property and again there are some hoops that have to be jumped through and it has to be a true serial filing under the statute so again it's just a matter of looking at each case actually and then comparing it to the timeframes in the statute but if you do have a serial filer who you know files you know pro se then dismisses the action and then functions again so you never can get your property to sale or every time as people are filing there is a mechanism out there to stop that from happening but unfortunately I probably took longer than most of us would would want it would want it to not give anyone add to that it's three times a year after that it no longer affects the property in the events what tom was talking about where they grant 1% beneficial interest elsewhere where one spouse files with the other doesn't that is where the serial filing takes place where abuse of the process happens and in rem relief has obtained that recorded in relation to the property were no foreclosure filed by anybody or sorry no bankruptcy filed by anybody will affect the property for a period of two years once again there's exhaustive legal remedies and rights afforded to secured creditors within these scenarios I see Tom's head cheek and uh Tom you have a different opinion well I don't know they have a difference of opinion i I don't you know I've been involved in a couple of these and and the the bankruptcy law is going to be pretty much you know uniform throughout the United States I mean my only issue is is me from a very simplistic view I don't I don't just disagree with that but there are different ways to get around the bankruptcy issues you know and to deal with it if somebody smart you know they can deal with the UH with the timing aspects of it you know one other thing I might just add here that I think is relevant not quite on this topic but what what you'll see sometimes that debtors do is they will file euphemistically referred to as a chapter 20 essentially what they'll do is they'll turn around file a chapter 7 get rid of a bunch of their sort of secured debt get their discharge then turn right around and file a chapter 13 so they can structure the mortgage arrearage um basically over a period of time and that's what gets frustrating to a lot of creditors is you know that now they got they just went through a seven now they're stuck in the thirteen and potentially have a five year period of time so so you know although we as creditors have a lot of rights that are afforded to us just because they're there does always mean we don't have to tell a lot of Hoops and spend a lot of money to essentially you know and and of course those rights great I Cathy had a question regarding so what happens if they file and are dismissed for some reason can they just keep what we finally in Florida like I said I think it depends on a specific jurisdiction a you're in I think in the Southern District they would not be able to file for 180 days if I'm not a faker and I think in the middle and the Northern District you have to ask the court to enter that specific language into the order dismissing the bankruptcy case and I think like matt says that simply refiling several times eventually the subsequent filings they just don't come with an automatic spirit you can still proceed with your foreclosure action I wouldn't be a bankruptcy stay imposed a debtor would probably follow a request with the Bankruptcy Court to actually impose a stay but you would have the ability to object to that the more times that the debtor filed bankruptcy and another thing like that is once someone becomes classified as serial filer you can actually seek prospective relief from the Bankruptcy Court meaning you're asking the court to say that they filed three four or five times and we're having a hard time getting title to our foreclosure or were able to move our foreclosure action and bankruptcy court please enter an order saying that regardless of any future filings they're released from the automatic stay and we can go to TQM relief and enforce our mortgage so that's something that recommended and pretty aggressive but is a good tool to have great um I think it's not a message I'm getting or fearful the fact you can't propose in a matter of if they follow thirteen um I want to make sure everyone knows that when your phone vacancy it's a good thing in our world because we're guaranteed payments where you receive payments from their whole process if it doesn't if payments are not received either we can follow motion for or the trustee will fob most relief so a 13 is not a bad thing or a will because actually if that oil is actually a good thing we can deal with an attorney and not a borrower so I'm going to go ahead and ask Matt what are some for everyone here in filter again to ask questions in chat man what would you say the biggest mistake that most note investors are doing nowadays are newer in the space it is they're not aware of quickly summarized I'd say they trust the person selling them the note too much we put exhaustive amounts of research into vetting homeowners but I do want to stress approximate equal amounts of efforts should also be putting into the seller of the note as to the reputation the type of notes that they sell the transparency involved and to ensure that one receives exactly what one is understanding that you're getting looking at title to understand what prior actions have taken place whether that be any prior foreclosure actions you may not be the first person to own the notes but you may be the first person to do something about it awesome Tom go ahead and what you're thinking about what mistakes the typical note investors make are there any other or not experience or even the experienced ones yeah I would note seller fought and fought with my client and said you know there's no lien on there and finally you know they went did their own search they found the lien and you know it could have been a disaster for my client if they had not done that due diligence work so spend the time and effort the money upfront because it will save you a ton in the on the back side free I'm gonna grade let's hire speak and then on the other I think my discussions up David I think talk about spending a little bit of money upfront doing your diligence is a great investment for any new note by or any sophisticated experienced retire tremendous amount of information can be learned pre-purchase which can save you a kind of money down the road oftentimes the best deal is feel that you passed up so you don't go and lose money or walk into a huge mess for example maybe an association was it's going in a suit maybe a borrower is highly contesting case with the very well-known defense counsel and there's a nice chance of the case yet to be dismissed you could be on the hook for Italian parties apparently some of these things can be avoided by simply doing an exhaustive amount of due diligence before purchase and I think the other thing to be mindful of is really understanding what you're buying a note and a mortgage priority considered you're getting a first or the second mortgage in the original collateral around does the seller actually have in their possession does the trustee have it has it been filed with the court in a fire case all of these things can be learned by doing a little bit of investigation before purchase and print your diligence period and I think like confidential spending some money and hiring an attorney could would be your files before pictures is a great investment in my opinion one of the questions that Kathy answers you know how can you ensure yourself every cell from a seller and IRA sponsor is reviewing the collateral and we're in the contract but also looking back at the company who's selling it or they know the old has a good rapper well but typical of the contract of PSA Tiffany will secure you you have a different opinion partly you go ahead and start off with that where how do you protect yourself when buying from a seller insuring you're getting we are buying so a couple things I think diligence is a really important factor looking through what they are representing in the contract which is what they're sending you copies of and I think the actual contract in contract is only the two parties that are to that contract mister parties if the sellers been in business for a long time you can and they're a reputable name you can probably rely on that contract a little bit more if they're not the first time you're doing business with them the representations that they're making that contract may not be as meaningful and unfortunately to do them over that contract may not be able to collect the fund that lawsuit because they may be 5x9 identity so doing business with good solid companies that have been around for a while talking to other people in the industry about who they're buying those from and what they were able to get from them and whether they delivered on the bargain that was made between you two parties think are really important but you're doing some research upfront not only in the collateral loan that you're buying but like like the other gentleman said in the seller that here and everyone awesome Tommy of you anything you want to add um no I think you know just just generally you know it's the dude it's a due diligence process and if there's red flags if you're getting if you're getting pressured to move very very quickly on something and they don't want to give you an opportunity to do due diligence I think that's a red flag I think you know good note but no purchase contracts should have a buyback provision or that they'll go buy the note back if there are defects time you know for a certain period of time you know those are things you want to look for that there are you know that I think that this seller is being upfront with you the other thing that's really important to is is to make sure that you know you get a chance to look at the collateral documents I mean you want to see that there's all the assignments there on the mortgage that there is a chain it goes from A to B to C to D that doesn't you and that they have all the Elisha's to the note as well and assignments of the note too many times we find problems in that area and it can delay foreclosure the Foucault's or process significantly increased holding times you know having to go back to the initial cell or trying to track that documentation down and sometimes it's just just not out there which creates a lot of difficulties for us here and oh in a lab all right I'm gonna let match up in here I can't expand her question Kathy type lend it to everyone as well but she really wants to know how do you know your wiring to what will seller give you the collateral file most no purchasers don't give you their source they're buying from uh because I don't want the competition I copy i leader going through the broker situation where we're looking to buy direct um places like condor and previewing the depth there more direct people if you're buying through somebody that's buying from somebody else just be very careful with that because there's me I would probably greet everyone on the call knows there isn't a lot of people in the space it's not about planning a new deal new seller it's actually cloning the deal inside the celery we know there's not allowed so is so important so if you're behind somebody's behind or someone else just a bully dad goes directly no one on it inventory out there there are from some of the bigger hedge funds better know for everybody so I would really focus on that so um she's mentioned drug source drug source did a lot of conifer deeds our broker for CFDs in a while whatnot Matt do you want to add anything to as well quite a bit to be clear I don't mind doing a deal with the devil as long as I know the rules there's a few people that I've shaken their hands and have to count my fingers afterwards but within this space there's a lot of reputable individuals whom I have deep respect for however regardless of some people that I may call friends personally businesses business and friends or friends one is protected by what's called the purchase and sale agreement as I expect homeowners to understand and read the contracts that are provided to them I read the contracts that are provided to me especially during a purchase where I am purchasing traditionally hundreds of loans and spending a considerable amount of money doing so as well so in the event that the seller does not fulfill their end of the contract as a creditor I will treat them the same way treat a borrower I will enforce the terms of that contract by whether it be sending the demand contacting them in going through the processes and procedures and I found that there are certain sellers to be very very honest and blunt that it traditionally respond only when they're shown in orange jumpsuit so they traditionally settle early and quickly similar to notes is that I'm a big fan of notes for the foreclosure timeline is short and it's inexpensive however they do know own notes nationwide and I will preface that a good note is a good note while it may take longer to foreclose and acquire title in certain states in the event it's a good note and there's equity within a property homeowners sure traditionally incentivized to settle these early and often so they will traditionally respond to some demand letters or the onset of a foreclosure process rather than in the later stages but that's something that can certainly be accounted for early on in regards to seeing all the collateral again they traditionally purchase hundreds of notes at a time and when this happens not all the assignments are there not always the launches are there sometimes certain document documents are missing a lot of this is resolved within the judicial foreclosure process but the other thing that can take place is that in the event is goal to go non judicial there's of course lost assignment affidavits what allows note affidavits but outside of that as well which those cause some issues with title later on or may cause issues is there's possible to get something references declaratory or decla Tory relief then where the court issues an order that regardless of the missing document that one is still the current beneficiary in possession of the notes all legal documents and rights and remedies afforded there under wonderful awesome I'm going to close up with one question now I've used before um is well you guys hold the file for filing for foreclosure in office and when you review our documents ensure that the documents are all there or do we need to use a collateral management service if it's something that's in the foreclosure process our house although you guys go start off sure thank you Bob I have no problem with going with collateral in my office and signing a daily letter we are in fact in possession of the original collateral so I don't have any problem with that whether that's pre litigation or during the litigation one thing that you said that struck something in my mind is before I actually do anything put the litigation even sending a beautiful letter we review that collateral to make sure that the party that we're representing actually has been standing to enforce too long so just because you have a note but what you don't have the proper investments we still need to do some work before we can actually send it the man letter or file a lawsuit on I know I got off track a little bit before there is good clarity here not good collateral your creations asking CPA and SEC violations for yourself yeah there was a question chat about Karen that's your sellers require providers require seller to show lunges in assignments in PDF before buying my answers yes they should be able to see an entire electronic file if I'm not buying with one of my common attorneys I say to a collateral management file company to review to make sure I'm not missing any issues signatures or whatnot Tom about holding collateral file and reviewing it now I typically I mean in a in a specific circumstance we might be willing to hold a collateral file we really have very little reason to have original documents in what in what we do so I would prefer not to you know pull documents unless they're needed for a specific purpose I mean you know I you know our firm it doesn't want to be a repository for collateral documents I guess um you know so um you know that's that's where big what was the second half of that question I'm torn um the question was so these you know anything to the court at a final hearing I mean asking we don't have to typically know I mean if the question is are we required to show original documents at a hearing typically no you know copies are going to be acceptable through the entire process unless for some a document has come into question as to its often authenticity board signature that sort of thing then we'd be required to exhibit an original you know we're able to do most everything by an affidavit to you know to have the you know the holder certify that they've been in continuous possession of the note you know since the foreclosure was started in those sorts of things so sounds like we're pretty fortunate maybe you're you know in Ohio that's not not true in Florida in Florida we have to present the original note at the final hearing in order to get a judgment or the Earl of Snowdon to David but if we have the original note that originally presented to the judge and it's all it's cancelled and filed with the court when a judgments entered we don't we don't we don't we don't have that so it is awesome so I do want to jumping in real quick i'ma let Mac I'd met you can speak let's see it was I mean I generally agree with them what's the brain question because we got off a lot of different tracks ministry it first some people are calling in via phone so in the chat message geez let everyone know you'd you described in the chat what I described in the chat is there was a question as to requiring selling to show a launches assignments any other documents before buying said no it's not a I don't traditionally require sellers to show everything but it's really not a bad idea especially on one-off purchases it's something to consider when certainly determining the purchase the purchase price or what I'm willing to bid on a note with less information provided quite honestly the lower I'm going to bid with the more transparency and the more information afforded to me well that's something that I'm willing to pay more for and it's common for provisions to be in place within the purchase and sale agreement stating that one will get all needed assignments and the launches but then again that had that provision and I purchased from certain sellers and have to enforce those provisions which cost time and money so it's something to look into as to receiving the original collateral as a foreclosure trustee we don't require it it's not needed I understand how some people are constantly afraid their house is going to burn down so they're not comfortable keeping it the box or a filing cabinet within their own house but personally there's really no need on my end to have somebody stick it in the filing cabinet I'm pretty good at that wonderful thank you very much um if there's any more questions where I shop in a second um I want to thank everyone for joining us tonight as well as the attorneys um it seems like everything that's been answered if you ditional questions please put in the chat I'm going to post a quick poll and then we're going to go ahead and I'm going to put your contact information to get back on the screen in one second I will on Homer poll and then I'm going to put your information it's just about what next we want to be talked about next month we deal with this question and then if I will go ahead and alert you of any things you want to add to this before we end up powers any kind of fun words again go by yourself and they can reach you yep well thank you very much for participating in a chat tentacles are certainly beneficial I wonder whether about some of these crosses in the other state any time anyone has any questions there are diligence or after they purchase a loan in Florida I'm happy to help if it's just to ask a question or if it's to handle 100 mounted for litigation files we can certainly help and I I think David can share a contact information again my name is Harris Howard was under mortgage foreclosure litigation REO closing thanks to work throughout this beautiful arc thank you very very much Thomason the your final words yeah I just like to thank everybody for having me tonight Dave for inviting me and you can learn more about me in our firms at wwr Wal keer Novak Nov a seek a calm or you can feel free to call me at six one four four two three eight two seven six I'm an extension 1:03 be more than happy to to talk to you know if you've got a general question or a quick question I'll be more than happy to well pay I pay it forward if you have any issues in Ohio Michigan or Kentucky plus awesome thank you very much managing cloud you will always happy to help out feel free to contact me at any time Dave does have all my contact information and the authorization to release that so we're here to help out and that's either providing your opinion to sa foreclosure trustee or I'm happy to provide my information as again I believe what we do so I do own notes personally and can provide that perspective as well right guys I'm posting here information on our big board here as well again thank you very much for joining us we will be in touch and they disciplines feel free to reach out to you directly Dave foot state AP holding my email address is pp you cheesy but jkp holdings calm and I I'm getting a 5 over here that we should make it a little bit larger I'll wipe out or Erica I thought her okay yeah I considered they wanted should be an email and I will get it right over to you and posted on you know my facebook page business page well again thank you so much everyone and have a good evening thank you very much you as well take care agreement because I don't I mean there there are two different things so modification is essentially you know attempting to reinstate the note whereas idli titlow is the total surrender of a property so they're sort of inconsistent in terms of doing that if the concept is that what we're going to do is say we're going to modify but if you default on the modification then we get to take a deed-in-lieu those things get to be pretty it pretty aggressive out there and that's something that I think you want to evaluate it on a case-by-case basis in terms of what your what your downside risk is you know as far as the the deed-in-lieu process I mean naturally summed it up pretty well I think in the sense that I think the merger language is really key because in Ohio under Ohio law that if we own a mortgage interest and then acquire a fee interest basically a greater interest we lose your right in the mortgage mortgage is extinguished unless you put some Civic language in the modification agreement we do it in our deeds as as well say there is no intent to merge because that's what keeps your lien position in place it allows you to essentially acquire an interest in the property do the deed in lieu maybe your junior position where you're a senior position and there's a junior mortgage you don't want to hop right up right away you can wait the property productive do what you want let that second mortgage sit there and maybe they go away on relief maybe to some point you do what is oftentimes referred to is a friendly foreclosure or you're just basically foreclosing to get to get rid of those two nearly all right tend to agree with Matt here I think that it's a it basically comes down to the initial due diligence in terms of researching the purchase of a note I think people get too excited about buying a note you know buying a hundred thousand dollar notes or you know five thousand dollars you know that that sounds enticing but there's a big backstory you know in terms of what's going on with that property what does the title look like what's the conditions of property you know are there code violations out there I think code code violations are becoming big issue that needs to be a part of everybody's due diligence process because we're seeing here in Ohio more and more demo orders being put on property where you get investors who buy the note didn't do the research and the first thing they're faced with is that $5,000 they just spend on that hundred thousand dollar note that property is going to be demo that house is going to be demo and usually it's kind of hard to reverse those once they once they get into the end of the process you know and I also agree is that a lot of these notes sellers you know try to lull you into buying their notes with promises that you know that the borrower is going to or you know that the borrower's set to begin resuming payments and doing these sorts of things you get you know you can't Bank on those on those things I think a lot of that is sales tactic and again I think you need to be a hundred percent comfortable with with what you're doing I give an example we have one here with a client just as we recently graduated title search on the property found a second mortgage that nobody claimed existed and the the.