Mastering Direct Mail Marketing for Real Estate Notes | Real Estate Notes Show

Episode: Mastering Direct Mail Marketing for Real Estate Notes w/ Jeff Armstrong Dave's Goals and Plans: - Recently returned from week-long unplugged vacation with family with no internet - Currently closing deals day before foreclosure with payoff (unusual for his typical workflow) - Went through foreclosure 3-4 times on one difficult deal, spending money on insurance - Has non-performer notes that have flipped to performing status - Making plug for DME conference first weekend of May Nathan's Goals and Plans: - Attended Noteworthy conference last week and observed mostly seasoned node investors (2/3 of room) - Currently has a note listed on PaperStack looking to sell - Received inquiries from two people asking for information already in the listing - Has dealt with brokers sending notes through multiple chains and back to original seller - Seeing increased deal flow with more non-performers emerging Key Recommendations: - Unplug and take breaks regularly - sharpens perspective and reduces fear that business will fall apart - Attend industry conferences like DME - where deals get done, vendors are found, and networking happens - When brokering notes, add real value - not just sending spreadsheets and expecting 5% commission - Read listings thoroughly before contacting sellers - don't ask for information already provided - Broker notes responsibly through direct connections only - avoid chains that can damage reputation and lead to blacklisting - Leave reviews on podcast/YouTube for chance to win DME raffle with special offers Topics Discussed: - Real estate note investing and deal flow updates - Direct mail marketing for real estate notes (episode title focus) - Note brokering best practices and ethical standards - Importance of industry conferences and networking - Recent market trends - increase in non-performing notes - DME conference promotion (first weekend of May) - Importance of unplugging and work-life balance Guest Insights: - Jeff Armstrong specializes in First Position performing individually held seller finance notes - his niche since 1950s - Started career at Ralph's grocery store, worked way up to night crew manager while exploring real estate through Dave Delado infomercials - Initially pursued teaching career but found grocery store management paid better (already $36K vs teacher starting salary) - Purchased first Triplex at age 18.5 using no money down real estate strategies, living in one unit and renting other two [Music] hey everyone Dave putz from jkp Holdings alongside me as always Mr Nathan Turner hello hello how are you sir welcome how are you man I'm doing well doing well good well I'm glad to have everyone back for this another real estate notes show we're going to be talking today but before we get into that let's just catch up for a minute it's been a few weeks I came back from a nice sunny vacation with the family uh unplugged uh I even AP our private group that we have um I was not there for that one and it was really good to have um it's really interesting when you kind of unplug what you start thinking about what you really start focusing on and you kind of get clear-minded so I encourage those who haven't done it before to please go ahead and do it yeah sharpen the saw that's the last principle in uh in the Cy book so yeah it's it's valuable to take a step back every once in a while and just take a break and maybe you start thinking about business maybe you don't but the very least taking a step back just for a break that that's very helpful enjoy the family right enjoy the time enjoy what you work for um and just kind of just unplug it was really nice to unplug for a week no internet I could have bought it I was tempted unplugged for a week um and things still kept going which you know the biggest fear as operators you kind of fear that things will fall apart while you're not there yeah and oddly enough it worked right amazing oh so in your deals anything going on recently your deals that you want to share with uh our followers you know the biggest deal coming up is DME that's uh that's been big Focus here we're less than two months away so we are getting into that uh almost crunch time but compressed time how's that abut we're getting it to where it's it's getting close so making plans still trying to figure out the schedule plugging things in here and there but uh it's coming along it's going to be a great conference looking forward to it and for those who are tuning in I we' highly encourage you guys this will be recorded on YouTube and in our podcast we like to get you some reviews on us right make sure you hit the reviews on our podcast we're going to have a special offer we're going to do a raffle in about three weeks for those who who did do the review for our podcast as well as our YouTube channel um if you do enter that we're going to be doing a nice special things for DME for you um and that will be broadcasted soon for those who do do the review so please jump on our podcast Spotify or apple whatever make a review on it and uh let us know what you think so in Deal flow right now I've gotone back and forth on some foreclosure going on some bankruptcy going on some deals came out of bankruptcy um and then we're closing a little bit deals here and there not as much as we used to right but enough to keep going I think for me yeah same I've seen still lots of deal flow it's really interesting to see what's coming out now I'm starting to see some more non-performers um I was actually at uh the noteworthy conference last week and uh really interesting discussion there and talking to you remember Matt Gillette he's he's been around time so he and Tyler wette uh partners and they are um actually coming out with their own company yes where they're sourcing mostly non-performers which has kind of been their bread and butter for the last oh I don't know how many years so I'm excited to see what they're coming up with they that's just brand new and so we'll give them a big shout out uh you haven't gotten their email yet you will to get all set up with their system and that's exciting that's cool to see that they're coming out with some new stuff absolutely there he is I see on LinkedIn Matt uh make sure hit him up there you go what's up Matthew how are you thanks for tuning in so yeah it's really cool if you're looking for more assets Matthew has been around for a long time um and it's been good cdy reaching out so those who don't know us we've been in the business for 15 plus years buying notes and originating them and selling notes as well so we do this show really to kind of share with you guys as we learn you learn we have I don't know how many episodes now um we encourage you guys to kind of share uh this show with others right and give us some suggestions feedbacks we'd love to hear from you guys um yeah I want to know what everyone's wanting to hear about like what do you want to learn about what do you want to dive in on more you know deeper on certain topics or something let us know we'd love to see what people are wondering about and see how it can help yeah absolutely so when we come with deals we've been dealing with some stuff that's been kind of unique right um we've had a couple right now closing day before foreclosure getting a payoff I'm not used to getting a payoff the day before foreclosure I'm used to getting the BK notice right actually kind of nice to deal with um and we're working through some Logistics on that and now that one deal was a a difficult deal because we've gone through foreclosure three or four times spent money on insurance things like that wasn't fun um but we've had some that have been taking off getting reinstatements performing uh non performer that flipped over so it's been really awesome um but what isn't awesome is the fact that we haven't seen a lot of you guys out there reaching out and connecting with us and again I'm going to make the plug for Nathan it's not my event yeah but get down there to DME the first weekend of May um you'll probably see a lot of the people on our show as well as tuning into our call or on it if you are no Creator right those are out there following Mark Monroe and things like that we're streaming line his live in his group as well guys come down check us out I know you say well I'm looking to create more rap notes and more notes come learn about the other side of it we can make you a fortune by what we're doing no buyers would love to buy the note you're creating and we'll teach you how to correctly create a note as well as successfully create a note you can sell make it more valuable so we can pay you more that that's really what it's about so something interesting at the noteworthy conference last week Kevin shortell was there and and was one of the first speakers and so he kind of did like a show of hands of who's here and it was really interesting I would say probably 2third of the room were seasoned node investors so people that have been in the business for a long long time and so you know I was thinking about that and isn't that interesting you know these no conferences they're not necessarily just for the beginners that's those are great and and it's great for people getting started and getting some education and stuff but really when you look around the room most of the people that are there excuse me are node investors people that are already in the business there's a reason for that there's a big reason why people that are already in the business keep going out to these conferences that is the secret sauce and and I I I know coming from me that sounds like a commercial but it's the truth that's where you that's where you find people that's where you get deals done that's where you find vendors you're looking for all of that and recently we've got I've been bombarded with people who are new and some of the people who are new are tuning in today cuz I talked them over the week who are looking at broker notes right right I've gotten a lot of I think there's a class that LE Arnold ran about brokering notes I encourage you guys broker notes can be done well and very poorly and give you a bad name yeah so when we say brokering notes that really means adding value not sending a spreadsheet out and expecting a 5% commission it's really really bad so we want to make sure you guys understand that and at the at the DME you're also going to learn these kind of Trades as well as connect with people like me and Nathan and others in the industry to learn what really look you say listen I don't got5 $330,000 to buy a note but I'd like the broker notes which can be done but there's a lot to go into it it's not real estate as Nathan always says right so we encourage you if you are note brokering post and pin down some questions below ask experts who have been doing it for a long time what it takes for you to be a successful broker not just take asset and send it over to anyone else and whatnot yeah so can I'll give you a quick example and this be kind maybe a lead into to uh Our Guest today so I've got a note up on paper stack right now that I'm looking to sell in the last two days I had two people both messaged me asking me for information that is in the listing so they're they're asking me to fill in their little chart of you know uh sale price down payment interest rate and I I just wrote them both back and I I'm I I don't mean to be rude I don't want to be mean but look that's it's in the listing literally you had to look at that before you clicked on the thing to start a communication like just look at it first if you're if there's seriously if there's things that are not there that need to fill in the blanks fine that's great I'm happy to answer questions but literally read the listing all the information and just be sure that if you're going to be brokering it you know who you're brokering to me and Nathan both been through this where the actual loan that we're selling got sent back to us by somebody else because the person who connected with us was brokering the note was sending it to three other people going through a chain to that in person actually sending it to us to buy from them it just gets dirty and you're going to get your name smeared and be blacklisted so yeah there is a great way to broker notes there's actually even better way as we transition this into a good friend uh and Padre over here Mr Jeff Armstrong Jeff welcome to the call I'm glad to see you being in there and I'm sure you've heard the Joker broker phrase before before we get into all that you've been on our show before but reintroduce yourself who are you how long you been doing this and uh how how'd you get started uh I'll try to keep it short I know we only have an hour thank you guys for having me on Nathan David I really appreciate it it's a it's a great time uh uh the note industry uh on my side my side of the note industry is First Position performing individually held seller finance notes okay that's my little niche that's where it all started from anyway way back in the 50s so um well let's see uh when I was uh 15 and a half I'll keep it short though when I was 15 and a half I got a job at Ralph's grocery store in Southern California I worked my way up to Frozen Foods night crew manager I worked for Ralphs for 9 years and 11 months during that time after I graduated high school I went to college for a couple years I thought I wanted to be a grade school teacher so I was taking all the classes in the third year of college I uh had to do an internship and I found out that uh they were only making about 36,000 a year to start and I was already making that much money at the grocery store why would I why would I want to do that deal with all the kids and stuff and so then my new plan was I'll stay at Ral I'll work my way up I'll be a director one day I'll make 100 Grand a year that'll be great but then I got into real estate you know I read the books and the first guy um that got me into it was uh Dave delado okay that might be older for you guys I'm sorry I'm 59 now but Dave delado was the very first infomercial Guru on TV selling no money down houses right how to buy property with no money down I scooped that up 149 bucks and I bought a Triplex three units I lived in one rented out the other two and I moved out of my parents house at 18 and a half nice right so that's why I and then I read Rich Dad Poor Dad oh oh yeah I want to get a 100 units now right so I started doing that by the time I was 25 still at Ralph's I'm I'm working um night crew I have 27 doors right triplexes homes condos each one of them I lived in for a certain amount of time fixed up resold I did the whole thing yeah so I know that I know the Fix and Flip I know the wholesaling I know the rehabbing those weren't even words back then you know uh but I've done that been there done that I was a landlord for a long long time and uh then uh I I needed something more you know I'm like well okay rentals are great but you know with rental properties you're in credit card debt because you always got to fix up properties 27 doors this guy's toilet that guy's water heater you know this guy spilled black paint you're just like ah you know these tenants you got to evict these ones poured concrete down the drains okay got it right so I was always looking for something there's got to be a better way got to be a better way so I I started going to all those you know uh they they send tickets in the mail or there would be a commercial online you know informercial come see this guy for free Be A Millionaire right I'd go to all of them I did so many different entrepreneurial things when I was in my early 20s we could talk for hours about them some were okay but this is the one that I landed on I got a a thing in the mail one day said make $10,000 a month for the rest of your life hey I who wouldn't take that right now yes right now that's still okay $10,000 a month for the rest of yeah sure and I'm like oh my God that sounds great I go in there I'm sitting in the class you know in the first seven minutes of this guy this you know sales lecturer right they're up there pumping you up and he says be the bank not the landlord I'm like what the heck does that mean I no landlord that sucks right uh be the bank and then he keeps talking say be the person that's receiving the payments on the mortgage instead of the person make making the payments I was in the back of the room signed up for the $7,500 cash threw down a couple credit cards right called in sick for a week for to go to the boot camp yeah and uh and I started there was no help there that class compared to what is out there now had so little information but it got the gist of it and I kept going it took me nine months to finally find my first transaction still working at Ralph's nice and uh 19 months after I took that course I quit my job at Ralphs I closed a really big deal uh the commission I think was like 37,000 big apartment note and I'm like yep you know I had to talk to the ex-wife back then you know hey can I can I quit my job I was going to quit anyway you just kind of want to include them you know what I mean so so I uh I quit I went in that the next day I didn't give two weeks notice because they would have fired me in a second you know there's no job loyalty they'll they'll let you go for no reason yeah and uh and I quit and and that was it I showed him a copy of the check and said dude I'm out of here I still send my old boss a Christmas card to this day wow know it's still alive but Christmas card still goes out yeah H um and and that's what I start so I put my job and then it was when I started doing this in 1991 May of 1991 uh this will be my 34th year doing this uh I was 100% brokering notes um and I had to figure it out pretty much all myself you know some of the listeners we have right now are sometimes younger than the first deal you did oh yeah yep y yeah I believe it I believe it uh so that that's kind of where I started so from 91 on I didn't quit my job till mid 93 okay and uh then the rest is history I was I broke it 100% you know for years in years uh 96 I bought my first note took me five years to get confident and get enough information from the conventions and the in the um conferences that I went to to learn from people that you're talking to in the hallways which is where all the action is the presenters are great and all the content great but what really happens at the conferences is after hours when you make those connections with the real people in the industry not the gurus not the guys that are touting their their books and tapes right but the guys that are writing the check every day to buy those notes yeah um and that's where all the good information is when you're getting with those guys uh so 96 I bought my first note uh and then the rest was history uh as time went by now I told you guys earlier last year 20% of the notes I broke 80% of the stuff that comes across my desk now I buy for myself my IRAs or whatever that is wow that's fantastic there you nice uh shout out from Gabe Nathan I don't know if you saw that oh yes Gabe Gabe yes say you're you're his note direct marketing Idol you've been very generous with your advice over the years it's amazing this space I don't know if you haven't been in this space for a while space is small but everyone's wanting and willing to share information we're almost an open book which I think we 90% are um and it's amazing so if you are new um you're GNA get that just ask questions yeah people are so open that was one of the things that was so impressive to me when I got started was how open everybody was and how do you do this how do you do that and what do you do in this situation and and everybody like there was never a time where I felt like I was being brushed off I felt like everyone was really answering my questions and helping me with whatever I was trying to figure out at the time and and that's still the case I I don't know all the answers and we have our calls together and we talk about things you know like so what do you guys do in this situation and everyone's very open yeah a question was the first year I started sharing information because you weren't sure if you were right right sometimes when you're beginning you don't want to share information out of fear that I may give rolling information out and I'm not confident enough in what I do yeah yeah yep yeah exactly and I I I was never a speaker before that and you know someone asked me you should share your stuff you're doing really well just just do how I run my business and so that's what I did and wow and then I just took off from there on that side of it sharing information building a broker base and all that kind of stuff yeah but yeah those conferences are key na for sure so the one of the questions on YouTube was what's the best Note conference now well I I'm gonna take the fifth on that yeah you know there's a lot of good ones uh ju just pay attention to uh who you're talking to and talk to them in the hallways and stuff you know get get the real Vibe and and what's really going on um that you know who's really buying the notes who's really just selling their books and tapes and things like that um there's a lot of gurus out there's a lot of people talking about the note industry but there's very few that actually know what they're doing and can do it you know I tell you we actually have it on our our due diligence portal there's two different layer levels of note conferences right I would tell you there's the imn the NBAs if you're new don't go it isn't worth your time energy and effort you're going to go Bonkers because you're not going to talk to someone because they're going to want $50 million trades minimum then you go to places like DME noex Expo you know things like that um I don't know if paper come back and noteworthy right for those four are the most common for in our level want to say that you probably get the most out of if you're new or somewhat experienced if you're institutionalized you're going to know about the other conferences so those are the four so best I think for me the best ones the ones that I attend every single one I go to I get something out of I make sure I do and then I actually do so it's a weekend away I see Tanya saying DME Matt saying DME over in LinkedIn um yep uh ax throwing at DME so that's what makes Cindy excited which is awesome yeah I I don't know I'm gonna go look I'm not sure we have uh I don't know that we own the domain DME I'm gonna check I don't think so but it's Diversified mortgage Expo in for if you're going to search it that's what you're going to search Diversified mortgage Expo they put that on your to-do list right it's a great one and of course I'm biased but it's a great one we we focus heavily on networking because that's that's the key in this business is just getting out and talking to people so we we're heavy on that there's no sales uh nobody's ever going to say run to the back of the room you'll never hear that so it's it's just education networking it's what we do and we're getting off tangent here for a second but I think one of the biggest things that conference is besides the networking is how willing the speakers are to speak to you after hours or between set totally y this is a a people business yes you know that's it comes down to that and and so many new people think they can just send emails and get a check right and it it's not it's a people business we talk with people every single day I'm on the phone four or six hours a day yeah that's the business man yeah talking to people yeah so it's so when you meet up in person that makes all the difference because I mean I had that lots of times where i' I've like done deals with people I've done transactions with people and we've never actually met but then when we do meet at a conference then all then that relationship is cemented and we can keep doing all kinds of great stuff going forward and it it just makes all the difference it's great absolutely absolutely um and what we'll do is if you are lost on some this I will make sure we will put the the link for the DME in the comments below I do see some people on YouTube look looking for it uh I will update that when we're done with this and put this in the show notes stuff like that Grant awesome so let's dive I put it up on the Facebook but okay on that feed all right cool I will grab it off that feed as well so let's dive into this thing Jeff yeah this is the best way in my true belief to broker notes if you're new into the note business doing bulk mail bulk postcards um is probably the best way a broker notes simply because you're never going to run into a Stace where you are selling a note to someone that already knows about it or you look like a joker broker because it didn't pass along if you're doing mailers and you get a response from a note seller and says I want to sell my note and you can do a quick evaluation and a note's not a 3% or 4% interest rate note you easily can say okay you wrote a 9% note I'm going to try broker it understand there's going to be a discount on that but if you can broker you can get more than 1% you can get more than 2% if you create a great opportunity for us note buyers and we could buy at the yield we're comfortable I have no problem giving you a couple thousand dollars what's your thoughts jef oh uh yes absolutely we have no problem with that that brokering is the way I started this business brokering uh being a note broker guys it's it's a job it's a business yeah it's not something you can do in an hour or two in the evening copy and paste stuff you find on the internet and email it to a bunch of of note investors you never even met or talked to um and then expect us to give you prices um that they're asking for right because that's usually not what we're going to do right yeah um yeah it's a business they have to look at it as a business they're starting a new business and it takes money time and effort to run and work and make any business succeed absolutely money for marketing time to put in and your effort and I know you do a lot of direct mail marketing how how does that work because I've heard you speak about this and I find it fascinating so tell us how that goes I've been doing direct mail from day one so I've been doing it for 34 years in this industry wow and and I want to clear this up right now before we start talking about direct mail it's not just Direct Mail yes direct mail I get about mostly well last year it was 47% of my closed deals came from my direct mail okay so we're talking it's usually about half 53% 41 59 you know it averages out to about 50% of my deals every year come from my direct mail but it it's not a send out a letter and get a check it's not send out a thousand letters and get five deals it's a consistent marketing program with multiple marketing uh methods working at the same time and my I always tout three to five things in the water at all times I'm a big bass fisherman used to do tournaments now I just pop on the lake and catch fish whenever I feel like it but um it definitely is you need to have three to five lines in the water if you have three to five lines in the water when you're fishing do you think you might catch more fish absolutely absolutely right so yes Direct Mail is a big portion of my uh marketing a whole marketing plan right I have a one sheet marketing plan uh But it includes direct mail it includes internet it includes uh classified ads I still Place classified ads in Across the Nation it includes uh uh referrals and networking and direct contact right and all those other things that that we do so it it's it's a business so when I talk about direct mail today it's not the only thing I do too many Brokers start out say I'm just going to send out mailings because Jeff does that well some months it doesn't work that well yeah right and keep in mind I've been doing direct mail for 34 years I got a call yesterday from someone that got a letter in 2009 do you think anyone else is gonna get that note no because they're all out of business they're gone right and I'm still here longevity counts in direct mail so with direct mail my success let's start let's start with what ises Direct Mail what do you define Direct Mail look like is it a postcards a letters it what do you define that ass my direct mail program is always a letter first postcards are followup postcards get thrown out you do not get the response that you get from a letter uh I do do postcards my process for Direct Mail is this I get fresh leads we're talking they just carried back a note last month freshly brand new I sent out thousands of letters every single month all right I have the budget now I've been doing this when I started out it was a thousand a minimum a thousand a month would send out uh I send it so I get the name I get the the spreadsheet I merge it into my letter and my printer prints them out and signs them I have because it has to be signed in blue Inc we'll get to that and and puts it in the envelopes that I specify and and sends them out all right now when I started direct mail I didn't know what I was doing right so the the thing with direct mail is just because it works for me does not necessarily mean it's going to work for you right you got to find your own little niche your own little things to tweak changing the you know everyone wants to use my exact letter my letter changes every three or four months right to to to keep up with the current things going on yeah hey St Patrick's Day is coming up maybe you need some money for your lucky charm or something right I mean you you make it current and relevant not just a copy and paste stuff of of a of a straight direct mail letter yeah Direct Mail is sending is uh sending a letter in my case a letter to your prospect and our Prospect is the individuals that carried back a first position note sold their property and carried back the note for the financing so they have a seller finance note okay that's our Prospect so we're sending a letter directly to the people we want to buy the note from right it's not random it's it's not mailing to a zip code or a city it's because we're looking for a you know you heard needle in a hay stack right yes we're looking for a needle in a needle stack and a stack of other needles is what we're looking for and and we get just like you guys probably lots of people you know call hey we need a loan we don't do loans we buy notes you know we need some Capital can we create a note no that's a loone you know we don't do that you create it then we'll buy it right yeah so uh we we target it directly to who we're going after so that's are you typically targeting brand new notes or brand new do you only Target that there is a uh so I've been doing this 34 years my statistics show me that after 12 months old the response goes way down so if you're mailing to people that have had their note for a year or more you're not going to get a great response the best response comes from the brand new note holders so again when I get my names I get them they they sold their property and carry back the note last month and now I got their name and they get my letter and they get other letters and postcards from people too and hopefully mine stands out right there is competition out there I'm not a standalone guy here but then direct mail it's a program it's not send a send out a th letters and twiddle your thumbs and wait for them to call MH no it sent out a th letters next month sent out another th letters month after that another th you got to have a program it has to keep going consistently for at least a year for things to start clicking right I think when I when I start with my people and I show them how to do what I do and they start their direct mail I tell them they should have their first closed deal in three to six months because I can get them to call I can help them with their marketing and get their you know get that phone to ring for them but when they answer the phone and what what questions they're asking and how do they sound do they sound like they know what they're doing and you know are they asking the right questions or the wrong questions are they scaring off the not seller or telling them too much or too little I I don't know I have no control over that part of it but I can get phone ring so you're doing a letter in an envelope I'm presuming it's handwritten or handwritten font right okay no no no that's too cheesy okay so let's go back to testing Direct Mail yes okay we already talked about the age of the names the newer the names the better your response is going to be the older the names the worse the really old names you're wasting your money um the I Target um specific States because we just do the whole states and I probably I think I mail to 14 states that that I chose Across the Nation and I I rotate them sometimes too um I I do a letter 6 months later they get a follow-up postcard 12 months later they get a follow-up postcard 18 months they they get a follow-up postcard so they get four things in 19 months and then then I I don't mail to them anymore that's it postcards are only for followup only for followup um then you have to start testing your text and your content and and what you have in your letter you want one page or two pages three pages four pages I did all kinds of different stuff I tested one two three I did it with you know having the computer do uh the scripted with the calligraphy and I did all kinds of different texts and fonts all of these things when I say I tested something I did it for three to six months and I changed nothing else about the direct mail right so if I'm testing the color of the paper which I tested wow the texture of the paper right um you want you want white paper you want light green paper you want vanilla paper light blue multicolored linen plain woven coarse smooth bumpy grain professional cheap credible there's all kinds of paper and I found for me for my business Nathan's going to crack up in a second here but I'm telling you it makes a difference wow I send out white linen paper it feels like a tablecloth right yeah feels like oh wow this guy has money right I just I just when I hold my letter I'm just like wow that feels like this guy has money right all these little things make a difference it's not just get some copy paper put some copy some letters on it send them out and get some deals you you've got to present that I have I have this money to buy your note right when they open that letter right confident so I spend I spend a good amount of money we'll get down to the the cost in a bit so so you test the the text you know your the body of your letter you test test the paper I tested the envelopes number 10 envelopes flat 9 by1 envelopes one window two window three window envelopes uh uh no envelopes fold it like a like a brochure and staple it uh White vanilla uh green the Golden Rod uh I had the the the window show I had I had the text the background of the paper look like money so they thought there was money in it right so they could open it up um I did first class triangles large small printed addresses I did bulk mail we'll talk about that in the second um uh should I handw write the addresses should I print the addresses should I put stickers on the addresses should I put a return address is a PO Box okay it should be physical address should it be a company name or not a company name should it be appeel box or my address should it be the color of the return address what should that be black green red maroon gold silver brown guys I tested all these things for three to six months individually on my letter for years I've been doing all this testing um and I've even tested things like putting in uh um a return a reply postcard fill it out send it back best thing for me white linen paper good body of text uh a one window envelope so when I fold the letter the address of the note holder shows through it yeah right I do put um my PO Box Armstrong Capital up on the corner with my PO Box doesn't make a difference a lot of people use PO Boxes now everyone's into privacy and stuff it doesn't scare people away because you have a PO Box anymore okay um one window out just plain white not linen too expensive for the envelope just plain white because they're going to rip it up and throw it out anyway y I print on the on the outside of the envelope I I have them hand stamped with a rubber stamp time sensitive material who does that anymore no one you got to make your your letter stand out so that you stand out of someone they want to call when they're getting seven letters and 18 postcards wow you know all of these things have to be tested it's not just send out a thousand letters and get deals yeah did you find the font what font did you find that worked the best for you uh font I'm presuming the handwritten one's the most commonly spoken about but I I use palentino okay palentino linotype is is mine okay and I've tested all I've tested times in Roman Ariel Courier veronda Tonga you name them I I've tested lots and lots of fonts and that's the one that I've stuck with for at least the last 10 years now I always thought that you know the handwritten note is always the one that sells the most and that person personized n it's too realtor it's too uh okay not official enough it's just me it's just my opinion your experience you know don't jump on me for it but I I just think it's it's too cheesy for our industry yeah yeah we're representing we have a bunch of money we're not going to sit down and write you a handwritten note yeah so I can buy you a $200,000 note so then and when you're targeting uh new note holders are you going for like real names or are you going for companies names and addresses I I do not when I get the list I do not want llc's uh corporations or any of those because one they might be in the business of of that and I really don't like dealing with those guys okay because they want x amount because they have to get x amount to get out of it and I most of the time I can't give them what they want right so I it's only the individual personal names that I receive of noteholders individual note holders I do not um have the list companies send me the llc's and corporations and and those types of things okay okay so you fil they filter it out for you they filter it all out yeah okay yeah um there's more there's more let's go you got questions probably be in the answers here let me tell you some more about direct mail then when you're testing the the body of the letter what about the salutation what should that be dear first name dear noteholder dear Mister Dear Miss dear last name what do you do tested them all out best response comes when it's dear first name that's it okay best response for me for me have you tried just first name not deer anything yes okay dear first name works best for me okay uh we said the body L we you know I have I have a bolded words I have capitalized words I have Grabber headlines a a bullet point or two or something but just one page one page yeah just one page short and sweet uh then you have the signature should you stamp it should it be should it be computer printed should it be hand signed should it be scanned in how what would get the best response unfortunately best response is with someone actually sitting down and hand signing my name so at my printer they have a high school kids that they hire and they sit there and they hand sign them in the pens that I send them thick blue number 10 rolling writers that's the pen that gets me the most response why blue is print up letters throw out no this is this is down to the nitty-gritty here why blue because it stands out I don't know why blue is the best because I tried blue yellow green purple black um red I didn't do because that obviously is a stop right I thought green would do good but no blue is the one that that I guess associate with comfort with professionalism or something maybe um and maybe that's why they call Best on the with the blue ink and you can tell when it's actually handwritten and not printed so that makes a difference for sure Absolut and do you guys do you tell them to call you do you tell them to go to a website how do you typically get them to engage with they three calls to action call email go to the website fill out the form and if they call does it go to you does it go to a call center does it go to here to my landline my 800 number landline that I still have because I started in 1991 and I don't know no different but and I don't use my my uh cell phone for business I try not to but I have the landline and I yes I answer phones I call people back I'm telling you four to six hours at least a day we on the phone and that's just with Note holders forget about title companies attorneys and everybody else we're talking to every day do you find that phone calls the most common way for them to reach out I think it's 5050 I think half of them will call first I think I don't think I know I have stats half of them call first I think uh 40% of them will send me an email and then about 10% go to the website and fill out the form okay right because they're not exactly sure yet what they want to do but um yeah that that on that uh good questions uh if your letter does not have a postcript a PS at the bottom you're going to get next to no calls that PS at the bottom that is the call to action call the day for a $500 bonus if you don't call the day please keep this letter in your mortgage file that's it oh $500 bonus what does that mean that means whatever price I'm going to give him if I if I figure out and calculate I'm going to pay 30,000 for this note I'm GNA give him 295 plus $500 bonus boom done $30,000 right but it's the call to action is it a little kind of like white lie I don't know some people have a problem I I've been doing it this way probably for the last 20 years I've had that same PS and it works it I like it I like it gets more responses yeah that's the postcript postage oh my gosh what what are stamps now there it's getting crazy how much stamps are now when I started out it was 27 cents yeah what is it 69 73 40 85 I don't know it keeps going up right expenses keep going up on Direct Mail it's not a cheap marketing method that's for for sure yeah but I tested I tested bulk mail I think bulk mail went right into the trash dumpster I got one or two calls for six months I did bulk mail because it's cheap one or two what would you find difference between bulk mail and doing what you're doing now what would you what was the difference for those who may not know uh uh bulk mail is a much cheaper rate that the Postal Service offers much much cheaper make maybe a a fifth of the price of a post a first class mail wow right uh and it's kind of a pain in the butt to use uh but I did try it for six months and and it just did not produce the results I wanted uh so I had to test other things I did uh you know um they have different things you can do a Pitney Bose machine and I had the Pitney Bose print print the postage on it I did uh first class presort uh ZIP plus 4 presort zip Plus 8 presort uh first class stamps regular stamps commemorative stamps I've done it all and works so when you say bulk mail most of the websites out there that offer bulk mail and you put up for 14 cents whatever it is that's what bulk mail you refer to versus the actual mailing to the post office kind of thing correct and then which one works best you said what works best is first class unfortunately the most expensive stamp right 73 cents I think it is now and but not not only that I walk into the post office and I get the commemorative stamps clouds Elvis Presley birdies whatever you know flowers and I send it to my printer and they stick them on there why to make it different from every other letter in mailing they're getting to separate it so they look at it and pick it up and open it so if they don't open it they just because how how many times do you get some in the mail you look at it that rip it in half you don't even open it right right yeah so are you literally having someone bring a thousand envelopes to the post office and putting it through the typical system oh yeah yeah gosh so you hire a printer there's lots of printing companies out there I've been using the same one for many many many years and they they do everything I I get the list I make sure it has everything I need on it I send it over to my printer he prints out all the letters he has the high school student sign all my letters he then has the machines both them trifold them stuffed them lick and stamp them with my stamps that I sent them right and then he takes it to the mailbox on the first Friday of the month that's today guys so mailing is going out today that's another thing that was tested when do I send these mailings out whenever I feel like it no you send it out on a Friday I get calls Monday afternoon they start coming in right away like clockwork I I've just tested it I set them out Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday Friday Saturday Sunday right I set them out Mondays first Monday of the month second Thursdays of the month I mean I've tried all different things best response for me first Friday of the month the calls start coming in Monday afternoon um and that's that's what works for me again all these things were tested and again when I tested stuff three to six months and I'm still testing things now right we're always changing the body of the letter we're always changing different things um so we have Ellis on Facebook asks he uses invitation style envelopes I always make the joke to use a wedding Envelope as a a ploy to get people have you tried doing stuff like that yeah yeah absolutely then when you start doing that kind of stuff yes i' I've even done things uh you know the Priority Mail envelopes that are now seven bucks back then they were like three or $4 I did that for six months wow per Prospect they each got a a a uh you know a prepaid big envelope I just lost my thought you know the prepaid imitations imitations right and uh you know the big one the big 9 by 12 one I sent those out for six months too expensive so when it comes back to the invitations too expensive not efficient right when you're doing as much Direct Mail as I am or even if you're just doing a thousand a month um it's you got to look at your your costs yeah you got per Prospect right now I think is about a133 per Prospect wow when I send out a th000 letters it's $1,333 right that's printer cost oh it includes your printer cost that includes everything that includes everything and so I always thought in wedding envelopes is something people would would catch the eye that weird Square envelope yeah did you find that it didn't work or it just didn't work for you I I it did work for me I say try it yeah yeah test it everything has to be tested people like well I don't want to test it costs money because what if it doesn't work because then I don't have money to do the next one well then you don't have enough money to start a business this is a business guys yeah it's not a dog and pony show it's it's not a get-rich quick scheme this is a business and you got to take it seriously uh and this is this is what it comes down to that's why I'm so anal right about my direct mail about my business the statistics I keep 72.6% of the deals I've closed in in all these years have been women note sellers wow interesting why I don't know I think when I'm on the phone with women I I'm a little yeah fun maybe and M nicer maybe I flirt a little bit or something but yeah umh that's a stat that that I started keeping way back when because the ex-wife uh heard me on the phone one time I'm I'm working and heard me on the phone and I hang up it was just a note holder and she's like who is that because it sounded like I was talking using my sexy voice or something I was like you talking about I'm working here you were using your sexy voice and like you don't even know my sexy voice I don't even use it with you so yeah anyway so one of the question we got is where are you getting your your sources if you're willing to share is the one thing no mostly don't where do you get your list you had them on your podcast you tell me Mr Scott right yeah yeah there's several out there there's several out there and I do get names from other sources as well but Scott arpan is my is where I get the most gotcha that was just a couple months ago so people want to go back and check that one that was just please do yeah use the man use theand uh and and then with your direct mail not only do you got to get do all those tests and set it up and that's that's how I created mine you gotta track it y so you see how it works so with tracking you know should it be the data letter um I put a secret code in the regarding section because I have regarding re at the top above the uh right above the deer first name right yeah guarding and I do a the date and the ZIP code right and and it looks like a trust I call it a trusted number hey that's that's not my trusted number oh no no that's our internal trustee number what's yours and you write and you start talking right yeah yeah but but that's there for me to track it hey what's that number on there oh oh it's this but that's wrong oh okay great what tell me what you have nice what's your that's awesome what what kind of response rates are you getting off of this I mean I know you know this if I send out now again this is not if you do this this is what you'll get this is this is my statistics yeah if I send out a thousand letters I expect to get 30 to 50 phone calls okay wow that's much higher than I thought four years of doing this they better I better be getting a good response rate yeah yeah of the of that I'll get three to five people to say yes and close one to three Deals yeah that's much higher than I maybe not that month right I might get a call like this from this lady way back in 2009 yeah right I gotta go back to my 2009 scats put that little check mark over there you know though but this is what it is this hope I hope this is on computer that you're getting the right responses this on a computer like a spreadsheet or are you doing like a notebook uh good question good question I I switched over to excel in uh in 2011 thank gosh I I don't know if maybe I mean again I'm older but I started out my accountant I've had I did my taxes on the phone yesterday with my accountant I've had the same account for 40 years guys yeah and I and she taught me you know those big green ledgers it's like it's like 11 by 14 I think it is it's dark green and green I don't know big books of ledgers that's what I used to keep tracking oh yeah but now it's all on Excel so so Jeff Gates asked why use a landlord not a cell phone that's a good question because you may not be home you may be taking the wife out the dinner and you don't get that you miss that phone call why landline oh dear you got to have some board some some boundaries you guys it's a business you're not available 247 right I I get an email from a broker on a Saturday morning at 6:00 AM Monday morning there's four more users saying how come you haven't responded because it's the weekend right nine to five guys this is a business we're working now do I work earlier and later yes but doesn't mean I'm gonna respond to you earlier and later right yeah that's me too I had landline for a long time it's not until just recently I I converted to the cell phone but if it's a business call after hours I'm probably not going to answer because Here's My Philosophy is if you call me at 7 o'clock at night there's nothing that we can do about it tonight that yeah you know the earliest that we can do anything about whatever you're calling about is tomorrow morning so we'll talk tomorrow yes and to answer that question uh that that David asked um I do not worry about missing calls yeah actually if they hang up they're doing me a favor because that means they really don't need the money so your big thing and listen guys is the fact that need to sell the node not they want to it's not that yeah you I need this money for something else is number one crucial thing here right yeah um so it's awesome the fact you you know I see Marco he does a lot of stuff too when uh people are talking about on on Facebook about Skip tracing people's names are you skip tracing names or are you just taking the list and pay from there no I'm not a techno guy I don't I don't skip Trace uh I only do that if I need to if there you know if they leave or something you know on a note that I have to foreclose on her but that doesn't happen often either what three foreclosures in 30 years so holy gosh that's great so let's ask some more more deep per professional questions this note has not been underwritten how does that affect your buying what does that even mean underwritten if a borrower is not underwritten by a licensed underwriter and that borrow can't afford the note does that ever apply to you the whole dodf Frank concern applies to all of the notes we buy absolutely how do all the seller you think do you think sellers of properties are vetting their buyers no they're not they're not we get we get people we got z% notes we got 3% notes we got 18% notes we got zero down we we got how do you handle those written we underwrite it as we're buying it gotcha right we're doing the due diligence we most of them don't even get title we got to get Title Insurance what's that I don't want to I don't want to pay an extra $100 to get a title policy that they're gonna take that out of my money from my sale I don't want that yeah are you redoing the note redoing no like rewriting them or you're just keeping them we buy it as it is and then you do the yeah we're not talking non-performing here we're not talking about modifying notes when they get into problems and stuff we're talking about you know just a buying a note from a note seller right so how do you prove the borrower has ability to repay are you getting their bank statements oh wow we moveed from direct mail to uh to internal due diligence okay because there's more about direct mail and we only got five minutes left we talk about postcards yet so but what's the question no just curious because a lot of times we run into seller finance notes so the borrower is not underwritten at all and that note could be invalid we we we try to find their credit right sometimes they we can find it sometimes we can't um and and one thing that we do that I don't think a lot of people even think about doing is before we closed like a couple days before I fund it I call the borrower I call the payer and I talk to them on the phone I do a pay or interview we ask him some pointed questions hey how do you like the property hey what's the interest rate on that note hey what do you think the balance is you know your payment amount okay no we're just we're just uh uh getting uh your note holders file in order that's all we're doing we're just helping them you know get his files in order we just wanted to clarify some things um can you answer some questions for us right first national does the same thing they'll do yes all the good ones do right all the good ones do and if you can't get a hold of the borrower then it because sometimes we can't or they don't want to talk to us because they don't have to then it's just a a gut call you know yeah got call so let's let's finish up with the postcard postcards so postcards are only for followup yeah right meaning I also if someone calls me and they just got a letter and someone calls me name and address on the postcard mail it out today okay and then it then it's in their mailbox again didn't I just call this guy oh my God he really wants my note okay so that's that's one use of the postcard So when you say followup it means only the people who've already reached out to you not just a follow-up of the list that was sent out last month not well not yet not yet that is coming okay right because so so yes so the followup is critical in this business because a lot of people think oh they didn't like my price too bad gone right they're not gone you got to follow up with them right you can buy it in two years maybe Direct Mail postcards I did all kinds of testing on the postcards too right uh colors yellow orange vanilla full color graphically done uh little text lots of texts got notes you know versus a whole big a bunch of text on it um the timing when to send them uh also with the postage B mail first class all that stuff was tested for me how often do I send it now well I used I tested out uh weekly manlings uh every two three four five six seven months I tested once a year I tested and it came down to the to the most efficient with my marketing cost most efficient and and uh uh most responses is letter postcard 6 months after postcard 12 month mons after postcard 18 months after and then I and then I purge them from from any mailings um but that is the program you track responses by the date the last name the ZIP code or the content um the response rate of direct mail is way better I mean letters is way better than with postcards postcards maybe you get 1% maybe right if you get a handful of calls you're probably jumping up and down when you get a call from a postcard it's probably someone that needs the money though right because that that's that's probably the only one that got in their mailbox that day but when they first uh carry back their note they're going to get a bunch of letters and a bunch of postcards in the first three to six months so after six months they don't get much anymore and they keep seeing my postcard pop in every six months uh great followup for me great great followup the the bottom line is you know for marketing for seller financed notes performing first position seller finance notes from individuals it is is uh you do lots of testing right you do lots of testing and it's a program it's a direct mail program it's not send out letters one month and get a bunch of deals do I'm presuming most of them Reach Out too when it stops performing right they may have said oh I like it I like you a three months later stop performing like I gotta get rid of this thing and they call you up and they ask you probably do you buy non performing I I don't advertise it but I I look at them sometimes you know it if if the deal is right I I'll definitely look at it but we're not we're not the best non-performing buyers for people out there you know do you automate I like uh I'm in Arizona I I bought lots of non-performing in Arizona for the right price when we can buying for 10 20 cents on the dollar Max yeah back in the day I just bought a performing note I just closed on it yesterday 38 cents on the dollar wow don't tell me 50 cents on the dollar is a great price for a non-performing note when I just paid 38 cents on the dollar for a perform note and happy about it yeah right are you automating your postcards or letters are you automating that process the postcard someone asked uh Ellis asked if are you automating your sequence of your postcard oh the the same printer that sends out my letters has boxes and boxes of my postcards and stickers and he puts the stickers and he posts those and sends those out for me as well and do you give them a list and say here you go for this month this is the sixth month for these people okay y yeah very cool yeah so that's all that effort and that that work you know I mean getting even just sending it to them me I I used to print them myself yeah I still have the same printer wow HP huet Packer thing right I I like R I like I would kill printers because I printed so much myself until I said okay now I can finally feel comfortable paying someone to do it right I don't suggest that that people start paying someone to do it right away I think you should lick stuff and St you know for a couple months so you know what the how much work it is and what you're paying for yeah I could lick stuff and stamp back in the day 300 letters in an hour print sign fold stuff steal put the stamp on put the rubber stamp on how many hours in a row can you do that though that's crazy how many hours how many hours in a row can you do that oh I had kids though too right I had two daughters 10 cents a letter they'd get through like a hundred and they'd be done I get my now that's awesome so we I've got some bunch of questions chat we're going to leave it there guys in the in the comments below we have a link click that link you're going to get Jeff information you can email him ask me any questions you got but the bigger question we got is will you be in Nashville in the beginning of May for the DME Diversified mortgage Expo to be determined to be determined uh I I got a check uh with the wife and uh and see what what we got going on we we got we got a lot of things going on this year so we're trying to fit everything in that we can um I will check back with you guys and give me what's today Friday give me till Monday and I'll check and for those who haven't again who haven't bought your ticket yet please do yourself favor go on our podcast on YouTube do some reviews give us some five stars and we'll be running a drawing in next three weeks for those who do review we're going to give a discount off the DME ticket for those who do review so please go on your Apple or your Spotify um and then come out to DME we're going to convince Jeff to get out there talk to his wife will buy her dinner or something and uh get him out there and talk to him again Jeff's as friendly as you see today uh every time we talk to him so it is awesome to spend some time with them on a Friday afternoon or Friday morning for you Jeff before we get to our last question Jee I just want to thank you again for coming on today yeah this has been great hey thank you guys for having me and and I'm glad you guys have built us up to a a position where you're influencing uh new people getting into the business I I applaud you for that it's it's not easy to to teach and train people how to do this business it's it's a business that not a lot of people know about and a lot of people think is illegal yeah right and I gotta convince my accountant every year this is legal um but you know thank you guys for having me on and and uh I I do enjoy sharing information I mean look the hour flew by we didn't even really cover Direct mail you know yeah talk about that's great so what do you see coming down the pipe like what do you see in the next 12 18 months how does this uh I I've never been good at predicting anything but yeah I I can tell you this that um last year I closed 37 transactions okay and this year uh 2025 it's March 7th I've already closed 13 Okay so I am um anticipating a Clos in 60 to 80 this year right and probably buying 70 of those yeah yeah and Jeff do you have a class or training that that you may want to leave with everyone well yeah there's a I used to do uh a lot of events myself called secrets of paper I do have a 101 SEC secrets of paper 101 uh introduction to the note business um and maybe I'll you guys the link or something you can it's I think it's 49 bucks and it's a three hour uh presentation on brokering notes on how to do the business very simple step by step one thing at a time oh my God fantastic everyone should get a hold of that everyone should do it right it's awesome well Jeff we're we're going to disconnect from the live feed for all those we'll be back in a few weeks uh make sure you get a hold of DME make sure you make your comment on our podcast all that good stuff this will be on YouTube and podcast in a day or two but other than that enjoy everyone have a great Friday afternoon and we'll see you the ruin soon take care all right.