How to Find and Manage Notes Without Overpaying for Training w/ Jamie Bateman | Real Estate Notes Show Ep 162

Welcome back to another Real Estate Notes Show. I'm your host, Dave Putz from JKP Holdings. Alongside me, as always, Mr. Nathan Turner. What's up, man? Hey, man. Good, good. How are you doing? Good. I think things are winding down. Summertime is what it is. I'm looking forward to the wintertime to kind of just to change a season, right? That's the one thing we kind of focus on is seasons changing, make us feel good. But as we talked about in our last show, you know, it's important to make sure that you get your systems in place and things like that. And I think that's the fall time, like we said in the last show, is when that stuff happens.

Yeah. It's funny because we were talking, I remember at the beginning of the summer and you're like, we're going to take some time to get some things in place and whatever. And then, you know what? Yeah. Summertime happened. Going doing stuff. So there was a couple of things we got figured out, but other things that were on the list that just didn't get to it because we're out, we're off our schedule. We're off doing other things, which is great. And that's what ultimately this is all about. But yeah, it's nice to get back into the rhythm of fall time and into wintertime. And, and it just, we fall back into that.

Okay. Now here's what we do. And it becomes a little more automatic and I like that. It's good. Yeah. So Nathan, in this time of year, I know you had a great system last year. Do you change your weekly schedule a little? I do. A little bit. And it depends a little bit on what I've got coming up and, and, you know, forecasting out what I've, what I need to prepare for and all those kinds of things. But yeah. And so I, I do kind of block off time every day for different projects. And I think that has been really helpful for me. Just making sure that nothing falls through the cracks and making sure I stay on top of things.

And so that's, that's been really useful. Well, in case you haven't heard yet by the time this recording comes out, but DME between this will be our, our virtual event for DME really looking forward to it. I think it's going to be a lot of fun coming up November 13th. this will be our, our virtual event for DME really looking forward to it. I think it's going to be a lot of fun coming up November 13th. So mark that on your calendar tickets are available. Get on there. We're trying to make this really accessible for everybody. Specifically, we're trying to incorporate more of the realtor real estate people and, and both invite them into our world and then teach note investors how to communicate with them.

Cause that's a huge deal source. For people who are looking for deals. So, so I'm very excited about that. We're the first time we were trying this and you know, fingers crossed it goes well. We'll see. That's awesome. Right. Cause part of this stuff is education, but outside of our spectrum, cause we have a lot to learn from them as well as they learn from us. Our show, we've talked about so much that we're learning from our, you know, our mastermind calls and stuff like that about what they do, how they do it and things that we have to correct in our space, but they have to correct theirs. Right.

So we can buy their assets on a regular basis. But you know, it comes down. It comes down to the fact of is we have to network with those, even if we're not sure what they do, how they do it. I just got three loans last week that were on top of the call. We had the episode be launching soon. Yeah. Where the, the asset just didn't hold water and they don't get it. And it's a shame. But what we found is I then connect with one of them and now we have a phone call. We have a follow up call next week where now I'm getting into his circle and the network can expand. Right. So now I'm getting around to his people, his team, and then we become friends, become colleagues, and then we're doing more business together.

Yeah. That is networking at the best. The spider web grows, right? Yeah. And it doesn't have to be the exact same industry. I had the same experience this summer. I went to a conference that was a real estate conference kind of outside my wheelhouse, but I've made some really great connections there. The spider web grows, right? Yeah. And it doesn't have to be the exact same industry. I had the same experience this summer. I went to a conference that was a real estate conference kind of outside my wheelhouse, but I've made some really great connections there. It just, it's turns into whatever it turns into, but you don't know until you get out there and start meeting people.

So. Get out there, meet people, talk to people. It makes all the difference. Which leads us right into today's topic, right? Because networking is something we preach all the time. Getting out there with people with different perspectives, different ideas, but also just to bounce ideas off of, right? At different levels. And when we talk about this stuff, going to conferences is one way. Social media is another way. But there's a time in your space where you just lost and those things become heartache. And Nathan, I don't provide that kind of skillset for these people who just need a handhold.

So who else can we reach out to? But Jamie, Jamie, thanks for jumping on our call today, our show, and just sharing a little bit of time with us. Absolutely. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. It should be fun. And hopefully we provide some value. I'm sure we will. I'm confident. Jamie, who are you? How would you get started in real estate in general? What's your background? Yeah. I mean, you know, I had everyday. Mapped out since age five. No, you know, I'm not going to pretend I had it all perfectly planned out. I don't think anyone's life turns out exactly how they think it's going to.

So I got out of college and I won't bore everyone with all the background, but got out of college. I'd been in athletics and, you know, kind of once all that ended, it was like, where, who am I? What am I trying to do? You know, kind of, I guess, bounced around a little bit. I landed a job with a title company for a couple of years, and then I worked for a mortgage broker for a little bit. My father had been a real estate agent for, he still is, you know, so he has been for many, many decades. I landed a job with a title company for a couple of years, and then I worked for a mortgage broker for a little bit.

My father had been a real estate agent for, he still is, you know, so he has been for many, many decades. And so I kind of just not necessarily by choice got exposed to real estate, you know, in general residential real estate at the title company learned a lot about, you know, collateral files and refinances and all these terms I hadn't been exposed to. You know, in school or just growing up, learned a lot there, was exposed to some real estate investing there, just watching others. And then what happened was in, I joined the military, got a civilian job for the Department of Defense. And through that kind of daily grind in the daily commute, I was like, you know, is this what I want to do for the rest of my life? I mean, it was a good job, good stable job.

Great benefits, decent pay, but it was commuting quite a bit and just realized this is, this is not how I want to spend, you know, the rest of my life. So it had a period of time where I just felt sorry for myself. Like I think we all do probably. And then, then I said, you know what, I can use this time in the car to listen to podcasts like this one, you know? And so I was listening to Bigger Pockets and a lot of other real estate investing podcasts, and it kind of really helped change my mindset. This was, I did have one rental at this time, but I wasn't, I wouldn't consider, I wouldn't have, wouldn't say I was really an active real estate investor at that time, but really in 2016 switched my mindset.

It wasn't an overnight thing, but it, but if you look over the course of six or eight months, it probably, you know, there was a significant change in that time period. It wasn't an overnight thing, but it, but if you look over the course of six or eight months, it probably, you know, there was a significant change in that time period. I ended up going part-time at my job, my W-2, still maintained full-time benefits at that point. So I didn't, you know, I didn't rip off the Band-Aid and go, you know, jump headfirst into the, into the pool, whatever, dive headfirst. I did kind of a slow transition over to full-time investing and entrepreneurship.

So, you know, there's a lot I'm skipping over, but I, I, in, in 2016 really switched that mentality to what, you know, what can I do? How do I take ownership of my own financial future? How do I, who's in my, who's. Who's on my team? Who do I, you know, who's in my corner? And I started thinking, you know, my father's a real estate agent. My brother was a loan officer and he still is as well. You know, in certain, instead of saying like this commute sucks, you know, this job is boring. My life is terrible. You know, it's like, no, what can I do? You know, to what, what strengths do I have? What do I bring to the table? And who's in my network? Like you were talking about Dave to help, to help me.

And who can I help as well? That's awesome. Kind of take ownership and move forward. So yeah. That's cool. And then, and you know, started becoming a lot more active in the residential rental property space at that point. And then we can talk more about, you know, further. You transition to this wild area of being the lender, right? Who introduced you? Was it a podcast that came into it? Was it Fred? How'd you get introduced to the note space? Because a lot of our listeners and a lot of us have that story of how we got into it and it wasn't. Right. School, of course. Right. No, for sure. So I had done a few, I think at this point we had about six rental properties, maybe seven.

And we'd done the work on those and kind of doing the burr method, which probably it worked a lot more at the time than it probably does now, just given market conditions. seven. And we'd done the work on those and kind of doing the burr method, which probably it worked a lot more at the time than it probably does now, just given market conditions. So I had really kind of, but all the properties were basically the same. They're, you know, townhomes in the Baltimore. We had a lot of property in the Baltimore County area in Maryland. And I don't want to say I got bored with it, but it was just like, okay, I get it now.

Like, that's how you do that. And there were several things that, you know, appealed to me about note investing. So I started, I started researching online and I stumbled across the BiggerPockets forum. I think my camera's a little slow today, but, and, you know, I discovered that tax lien. I'm sure you guys are familiar with the tax lien and note investing forum. I'm on BiggerPockets and that is really what got me the initial exposure to note investing. And I started researching further. I wanted something that was more passive, um, than rental property investing with the rehabs and tenants and things like that.

And I wanted something that you could do from anywhere. Um, and you know, and it's something that kind of was in the same, wasn't, wasn't entirely different than residential rental property investing, you know, it's pretty related. So it's not like I was going into oil and gas or mobile home park, you know, development or something completely different. Dad and brother can understand what you're getting into and relate to that. That's right. So it was something that was pushing me to get outside my comfort zone. Um, also had certain, uh, you know, characteristics to it that, that rental property investing doesn't have, but it wasn't a huge, huge stretch.

So got in from there. I connected with some people like Chris Sebeny. We did, we did a JV deal together. And kind of started to get my feet wet. And, um, then things grew from there. Very cool. Very cool. And you love your rentals. Well, you know what, you know what, in our space, people tend to bash rentals. And kind of started to get my feet wet. And, um, then things grew from there. Very cool. Very cool. And you love your rentals. Well, you know what, you know what, in our space, people tend to bash rentals. I've sold a couple, but, uh, I like my rentals. I still have most of them. That's good.

You know, they have certain benefits. I'm not somebody who, you know, note investing is great. Um, but it, there's no perfect strategy or perfect. There's no perfect asset class or, you know, and so, um, rental properties have tax benefits. They have appreciation. You buy a performing note. It's not going to appreciate really in value. It's a tool in your toolbox, right? It's, it's a tool and you got to use all your tools, right? Not just one. Exactly. And I think most people get stuck in the mindset of, you know, I I'm a, I'm a landlord. It's all I can do. And when they're presented with an opportunity to become a lender, they just push away from that.

I think you're right. I mean, right. Rental properties have a great advantage, especially with W2 in earners like that rental property is huge because the pass through opportunity, um, when you first got into notes for most people, you're lost, confused. Did you enter it differently because of the experience and the relationship you already have with dad and brother? Well, maybe a little bit more, I may have had a little more confidence just, uh, because I'd been, I worked for a title company and a mortgage broker and then the relationships with my family members as well. And, um, you know, and so I just felt like I understood somewhat, you know, residential real estate investing, which helped, um, people come into note investing from all kinds of different backgrounds, you know, engineers, as you, as you guys know, you know, people from real estate investing, people from finance, like mortgage people, you know, all kinds of different attorneys are always, we get, like I was just settled before the call, I got a phone attorney who's getting into it more.

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Right. So I think, I think it's a squash posh of, you don't need to be one trade or another trade to get started. Right. got a phone attorney who's getting into it more. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Right. So I think, I think it's a squash posh of, you don't need to be one trade or another trade to get started. Right. So I do think it, uh, that helps me having those relationships and that background to, to give me some confidence that I, that I could do this or, you know, at least try it. Right. And then, um, but, but there's still a ton to learn as you're alluding to Dave.

Um, so I did the JV deal, a couple of kind of more passive deals. If you will, where I supplied the capital, but I wasn't doing the day-to-day management and that way I could look over someone's shoulder. I also took, um, you know, I did some conferences, I did some training, a few kind of weekend training seminars and things like that. Went to some conferences, I should say. Um, I didn't really do like a full fledged, you know, 12 week training program or anything, but, um, but I did absolutely, I wasn't afraid to ask questions from people who had been in the game longer than I had been and ask the dumb question because the truth is like, you know, they didn't know the answer to that question until they did.

And, and also I probably know things they don't know about other things. So like, it's okay that I can look, I can look stupid, you know, if you will, and ask questions. I went to university and got a business degree, business management degree. And I, I had no idea there was such thing as a financial calculator. I'd never heard of that in a business. Right. University degree. Right. I couldn't believe it. Yeah. I mean, there's so much to learn in general. It just in, you're never going to learn it all in all subjects. Right. So it's okay that you don't know. So I think, I don't think note investing, you know, there's a lot to do.

There's a lot to learn. There's a lot of, you know, attention to detail is, is really important and being organized. Um, but, but there, you can learn it. And if you break it down, it's, you know, there, you absolutely. Can, can learn. If you were to start it over again, would you've wanted to take a long class, um, with a group of people even, right. Would that have been beneficial? And if you break it down, it's, you know, there, you absolutely. Can, can learn. If you were to start it over again, would you've wanted to take a long class, um, with a group of people even, right. Would that have been beneficial? Would you've gotten, or what do you think the way you entered it was actually better for you? That's a very good question.

I, maybe a little bit of more formal training would be good. That said some of these programs that have been out there by some, you know, offered by certain gurus, et cetera, are absolutely. Overpriced and just, to me, it's take your money instead of spending 30, $50,000 on a training program. I'm not saying jump in by yourself and just go by three NPLs and hope for the best, but take your money and buy a note, do a joint venture with somebody, or, or if it's obviously all legal and above board. And, um, you know, but I, I think one of the mistakes I made getting to, to what you're, you know, what you're asking about Dave, I think one of the mistakes that I made was, was actually being too passive.

I, I learned by doing, and so I don't recommend you do it on your own, you know, um, but I do think most people learn by, by participating. Right. And so I've had that where there's people, I know they want to get into the business and they're like, well, why don't I just start by doing a deal with you? And I actually say, no, thanks, because frankly, it would drive me crazy if they're just going to be the backseat driver the whole time. Right. Right, right, right. It's not a relationship I want to, if you want to do it, do it, but I, and I'm happy to, you know, walk you through it and talk to you.

But Jamie, I think your good point here is that I didn't take formal training as we know too. Right. But I wish I did to a point because then I had to fill in the spots that I didn't pick up on or experiences I didn't go through. And the only two ways of doing it was either going through it the hard way, learning from someone else. Right. Those are the only two ways because we're at that formal training. up on or experiences I didn't go through. And the only two ways of doing it was either going through it the hard way, learning from someone else. Right. Those are the only two ways because we're at that formal training.

I wish I was part of that for the networking as well as the actual education piece that I missed out on because I had no education at all when I got started. Yeah. And I'll tell you, and from my experience, like I did, I did take a class, uh, equally valuable was the networking. Yeah. Yeah. The group that I was like a hundred percent. Like 50, 50, that was just as worth it to get into that network than it was for the actual classroom time. And I think that's very undervalued is the networking piece in general. And we all, we talk about it, but what does, what does that mean and how does it actually have value to network or have an expanded network? Well, one example is I do mentorship.

Um, talk about that a little bit about how did you come across the first time? And like, if I'm a first time person, the very first time, I'm sure you weren't planning to do mentorship. He probably came out. We're like, right. You know, I got to help you go through this. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I think it was somewhat because of the things we've talked about as far as like, I went through it and I didn't really have a, an actual mentor necessarily. Now, to be clear, I don't, I don't love the approach where people say, I need a mentor. You know, it's like, well, okay, well, what are you bringing to the table? Why would someone just devote their time to training you or mentoring you? But, um, you know, and also I had been a coach.

I coached lacrosse back in the day. And, um, I'm not someone who, you know, loves to stand on stage and, and, and present to a huge audience. I like to work in smaller groups and work one-on-one with people. And I like to kind of invest in people who I can see are willing to, and wanting to take ownership and take action. Um, most of the, you know, just like anything else, most of the people who start out in note investing, they don't continue with it, you know, and I it's finding those people, people who actually want to move forward and will follow through and do what they say they're going to do, you know, and work with those people.

note investing, they don't continue with it, you know, and I it's finding those people, people who actually want to move forward and will follow through and do what they say they're going to do, you know, and work with those people. I've mentored somebody. Um, I just had a mentorship call with him yesterday, literally, and I've mentored him for four or five years and he's bought 25 or 30 notes. And that is like, I'm not taking the credit for that. I'm just like, that is super cool that like he followed through. And now with the calls that we have, he keeps me on my toes and I'm learning things because he's pushing me.

You know? And I don't know the answer to that. Let me, let me research that. And I think you made a good point. When mentoring happens, it has to be just a partnership, right? Because if I get a mentorship with you and I'm saying, okay, I'm taking notes and you're speaking to me, there is no learning. No, absolutely. Yeah. So a couple of things is that it's, you know, the mentorship that I do, we, it's, it's, I do have a framework I do because I've done it a bunch of times with different people. I've helped people over the years. We do. I do now know. All right. Generally speaking, we're going to need to build a buy box.

We're going to need to go through the due diligence process. We're going to need to work on sources of notes. And that's a huge piece that I want to circle back to with regard to networking. But so I do have a kind of a framework that I want to move forward through with these people because generally speaking, that's what, that's what the foundation is. That said, the mentorship program is all about. It's it. They're the one they're coming to me with questions and, and if they already have their buy box and it's fully detailed or they, or maybe they worked at a, you know, at a collateral, maybe they worked for Casey Wilson for 30 years.

I'm not going to teach them about a collateral file. Right. So they're coming from a different, you know, they may have expertise that I don't have. Maybe they were a mortgage underwriter, you know, and, and you know, whatever, maybe they, they built houses for decades and they know a lot more about the property value. And then I do whatever it is. And so we're not going to focus on that. Maybe they were a mortgage underwriter, you know, and, and you know, whatever, maybe they, they built houses for decades and they know a lot more about the property value. And then I do whatever it is. And so we're not going to focus on that.

You know, we're going to focus on their needs. So it is, there is a framework, there is structure to it, but there it's also very fluid in the sense of I'm meeting you where you are, where you need me to meet you and finding out where you want to go and helping you get there. And also I'm not giving financial advice. I'm not giving legal advice. I'm, I am strictly saying, here's what I would do most likely in your situation. And also if I don't have the answer. Or the, the resource that they need, here's somebody that I think you should talk to. And that gets to the networking piece, which is very valuable.

Yeah. Real quick. And I think what you're hitting home is that every deal, every investor is not a cookie cutter, right? Your buy box has always been for mine, but we're not competing because of where they're coming from. And people think that, well, if I get mentored by the same person, it's going to be repeated information. No, your background, your experience, what your interest level is. How much capital, how long you want your capital exposed for? What kind of risk levels are you into? What states do you like? There's a lot of things that go into it. Right. And even just, just playing preference.

Yeah. Like, I just like that because I like it, you know, like sometimes it's as simple as that. Yeah, absolutely. So I think people need to make sure that they realize that this space, I can compete against Jamie in a deal and I may not be interested. He may be loving it. It doesn't make me right and him wrong. It's just our preference. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, some people are looking for cashflow, they may be older and they've retired or some people have a high paying job and they have no problem looking for that greater return and buying some NPLs and waiting for a year or two for that upside, you know, it's just different approaches.

Or they're working something part-time and so they've got the time to devote into a non-performance. Oh, that's a huge thing. Right. Right. That's a piece of it. You got to know it's going to take more time. I think you're right. Time is also now a value asset that people don't appreciate. You have a couple hours a day. That's a lot more than I have and Nathan has and Jamie has. a non-performance. Oh, that's a huge thing. Right. Right. That's a piece of it. You got to know it's going to take more time. I think you're right. Time is also now a value asset that people don't appreciate. You have a couple hours a day.

That's a lot more than I have and Nathan has and Jamie has. Right. Right. Right. You got three hours to just do whatever you want to do. Like, that's awesome. And that may be a valued source that we just don't have. Absolutely. So, Jamie, let's go back to that networking and sourcing deals because that is always a crucial thing and I'm sure people will rewatch this portion. What do you talk about when people say, I want to find notes, I want to find where you're sourcing them? What's your response to that? How do you find them? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it is the... That's the number one question, right? It's...

I mean, it's... So I... And I stole this from Dave Van Horn, but I'm running a note business from PPR. Running a note business, in my opinion, breaks down into three parts. One is finding notes and that's what we're talking about. Two is finding capital. If you want to scale, you're going to run out of your own capital that you have allocated to this. And the third piece is managing the capital and managing the notes. So it's the operations of the business. But that first one is critical, is finding notes, right? Access to deals. Yeah. So, and I'm sure... And I know you guys talk about this all the time with different...

You mentioned, Nathan, the realtors being a source of notes. I'll be honest, that's not something I've really leaned into and I probably should. Yeah. So to answer the question of how do I answer that question, the reality is it takes time. It takes building your network. People don't like to hear this, but it's... Yeah. And like I say, there are sites like PaperStack and I think, Dave, you have a site as well where you offer notes for sale through your portal. And so there are platforms for sure. There are other online platforms as well. But the truth is, I buy most of my notes from other note investors and we just bought in the last...

Our fund now has about 54 assets and we just bought... Like five. Yeah. What'd you say? High five. High five. Great. Yes. I thought you said 55, like 54. the last... Our fund now has about 54 assets and we just bought... Like five. Yeah. What'd you say? High five. High five. Great. Yes. I thought you said 55, like 54. Just kidding. Yeah. No, but I just say that we've actually bought a bunch of seconds recently and where did I buy those? Well, it was from somebody that I have gotten to know very well in the last three years. He's been in the note space for a long time. He's recently moved more into the land note, land lending space, and he has a lot of notes that he has owned over the years that he's not really focused on anymore.

And we have a trust level. So he's someone that I know, like, and trust. And that's just one source, right? Yeah. And so that took time to develop. And so when you get plugged in with a mentor, you can fast forward. It doesn't mean you're immediately like best friends with everybody in my network or Dave's network or Nathan's network. But that helps that you have social proof and it helps you build that trust. You can fast forward that, you know, that relationship building and that, that. And we've talked about the show is Jamie, you could give me that contact, but if I've never spoke to that contact, I'm not going to get the same transaction as you are, not the same response.

I'm not going to get the deals. Right. Giving out a source is I'll be a quarter of the opportunity. The other three quarters build that relationship where you can reach out to and talk to them. For sure. Most of our deals in the last 10 years has been relationship based only. Yeah. Yes. I'm going to say 85% of my deals have been really where it's just not a whim. Right. Right. And, and I'll say this for, for purchasing. So, um, paper stack, I love those guys. And I was actually just chatting with Brett last night for like an hour, just texting back. He's a talker, isn't he? He's a talker, but I love those guys.

Um, I've never bought a note through paper stack. I've sold a bunch. Okay. Like several notes sold, but not for them, but I've never purchased. Yeah. And, and not to say that you can't do that. Obviously I sell them on there, so it's a good place to go. Right. Uh, but again, Dave, to your point, like when you're looking for deals, it's going to be Okay. Like several notes sold, but not for them, but I've never purchased. Yeah. And, and not to say that you can't do that. Obviously I sell them on there, so it's a good place to go. Right. Uh, but again, Dave, to your point, like when you're looking for deals, it's going to be through those relationships, like almost always.

Yeah, absolutely. And it, these, you know, a lot of times these notes aren't advertised anywhere that, that are, you know, just like a lot of jobs are not posted online. It's exactly who, you know, right. Well, a lot of notes that are actually for sale, aren't listed anywhere. Right. And some people get upset that this is a very inefficient marketplace. It's, you know, it's like, not like this New York, New York stock exchange where you just go buy. MLS, right. Like just go buy a house. Right. That's the engineers. That's the engineer. It's gotta be more systemized. Well, Well, it's, but it, yes.

And, but it takes, because it takes work and it's in, in, you know, you can, you could get ripped off. Right. There are untrustworthy, trustworthy people in this space. Um, but also that's where opportunity lies. Yes. You know, so getting to know these people and now I'd rather work with people I've worked with before, you know, you know, because it's just, it, it, there is an ease of there's a trust level. I know if there's an issue when I buy a note, Hey, this, this document was missing in the collateral file. No problem. Let me get that for you. You know, it's, it's not some strain. And then that's, it's not just on the note purchase and sale.

It's all of the other things too. Like, so I don't think it's much of a secret. I'll say it anyway. Most of the people that come to sponsor, most of the vendors that come to DME, most of them are people that I've worked with before, like the vast majority. So there's, there's a couple of new ones that I'm like, yeah, we'll give them a shot, but right. The vast majority they're there because I've actually personally worked with them before and I have that level of trust and I, I'm happy to introduce them to other people. So that's how they get there. It's not just, they call it up. So I think the leverage, most people think mentorship is a one-on-one zoom call and that's it.

Right. Right. I think people miss out on that. Your former relationship with Jamie, right. To make it happen. Right. And then branching out, Hey, listen, you looking do this while I got this person. Now all of a sudden you're introduced to a seller directly from someone in a relationship it. Right. Right. I think people miss out on that. Your former relationship with Jamie, right. To make it happen. Right. And then branching out, Hey, listen, you looking do this while I got this person. Now all of a sudden you're introduced to a seller directly from someone in a relationship with it. That's different from them.

Cold emailing. I'm saying I buy notes. Cause guess what? Right. We get those all week long. I ignore every one of them because it's just not worth it. Right. No. And we have a, it's small, but we have a small, we have a community of, of other active, you know, mentees, you know, people that I've worked with and, you know and just online, it's just like, it's not, it's through a go high level base, you know, it's not on Facebook or anything, but well, I'll just do that. I don't, I don't take a broker fee or anything. It's just like, Hey, this isn't, I don't have cash right now, or this isn't in my buy box.

Like here, you know, and introduce these two people and several people that I've mentored have done deals together, you know, because of that. So you are immediately plugged into a network of other, other people. Yeah. Other newer note investors and also other more experienced investors as well. So you mentioned before about getting the assets and now managing the assets, right? Because people love to buy, right? They, they excited to buy and then it's like, I got a bunch, I'm going to go buy more and they, they don't manage the assets. What are you go over and some of the mentors in your daily business of what it looks like to manage the asset.

Yeah. The truth is that's where I do. You know, my primary focus. My primary focus is, is my fund, which is for accredited investors, but I also do mentorship and I love doing that. So therefore, you know, which, which I think by the way, the focus on the fund helps my mentorship because I'm very active in my own business. So I can talk about, Hey, this is what just happened to me yesterday. As opposed to, I bought a note in, you know, 2005 and, you know, but you know, to answer your question, Dave, I, I am, that is where I spend most of my time. Honestly. I love it. your question, Dave, I, I am, that is where I spend most of my time.

Honestly. I love it. I can't think of where I, I, you know, I want to spend my time. I love, I love investing in the world, my, my, my business as well. I really, I love it. And I always, I love my money better than I could. You know, when I was starting out, I did a lot of real estate. I was a potential investor before I was a real estate investor and, and so this is the end result. And this is, this is a big deal just for anybody who wants to invest. Buying correctly is probably actually more important than managing the asset because if you overpay for a note, you're really putting yourself in a corner no matter how great you are at asset management.

But absolutely, day to day, we are pushing our attorneys, we're pushing our vendors, we're pushing our servicers, we're pushing our collateral file custodian, whoever it is. Hey, what's the latest on this? Hey, what do you need from us? Because I don't ever want the ball to be in our court. I don't want us to be the... And I say us, I have a small team. But I don't want me or my team to be the roadblock ever. So you work with these people. I think a lot of people also think that when they buy the asset, they expect a certain outcome. I'm going to buy this non-performer to get the asset, to get that real estate property.

How do you walk them through that? Yeah, buying right is the key of everything. Right, right. However, you can't predict what will the end result be. Especially a non-performer. Yeah. Especially a non-performer. You might have a pretty good guess, just depending on, from having done this before or just reading the pay history and the servicer notes and things. Okay, this is maybe, probably how this is going to turn out. Does this person have equity in the home? If there's a ton of equity, there's a good chance they may file for bankruptcy. If they don't, they probably, they might walk away from the property, right? So, but the truth is you don't know.

And so you don't know whether, you know, for NPLs, let's, you know, if we're focused on NPLs with an owner-occupied borrower, right, it can only go through the property or the borrower or the note. you know, for NPLs, let's, you know, if we're focused on NPLs with an owner-occupied borrower, right, it can only go through the property or the borrower or the note. You can sell the note. Okay. But you really can only go through the property through by foreclosure deed in lieu typically, or through the borrower. And that's some kind of modification or some kind of workout with the borrower. If you buy right, then you have, then you're okay no matter what, right? And you have a solid exit no matter what, but, and you need to manage it well, but you really don't know.

I mean, people are very unpredictable. You just can't, you just don't. And you don't know what the real estate values are going to do. And that's why we'll set a cap about 75% of the value of the property is how much we're willing to pay. We're willing to buy the note for that way. If the property drops and I don't really care that much typically, right. That makes sense. I wonder, sometimes I wonder if Jim Morrison from the doors was a note investor, the first line there, people are strange. I'm like, yeah, that's about right. I mean, it's fascinating. Unpredictable things. Yeah. And that's, that's, you know, I, I try not to deal with, this sounds like I'm on a, up on a pedestal or something, but I don't deal with borrowers.

I don't deal with borrowers directly. Very rarely. I will if I have to, but because I just, everybody has a story and, and I don't want, I feel like I'm, I feel like I'm too nice. And if I I'll fall for the story. And so, you know, but I, but I do genuinely, like genuinely enjoy kind of learning about their situation and trying to predict what might happen or try to figure out what's in their mind. You try helping them too. You do everything. Your power to help. I, we had a case where it was in Ohio and the husband got disabled. He was a breadwinner. And it's like, how can I make it work? Right.

Nothing could work out. Right. Right. It just didn't work out. And you feel guilty. You feel bad. You're like, wait, I didn't put myself in this spot. Right. I bought the note knowing that there's a problem. I got to go through it. And I think that's a benefit of having that servicer. Right. Nothing could work out. Right. Right. It just didn't work out. And you feel guilty. You feel bad. You're like, wait, I didn't put myself in this spot. Right. I bought the note knowing that there's a problem. I got to go through it. And I think that's a benefit of having that servicer. And I, I'm sure you encourage everyone when they buy the note, don't service yourself.

Always use a servicer. Absolutely. And leverage that servicer. Absolutely. You're paying them and they're licensed, hopefully in that state. And, uh, and you know, that's, that's their, their role. And so, yeah, no, I, I do want to help people. It's hard to know. It's hard to, you know, know what is best for, for borrowers. I have had borrowers where we've essentially kicked them out of their home. I mean, numerous, but somewhere that was the best thing for them. It was the only way. They were going to get a restart or reset. I've had one, one drama, you know, dramatic case where we've, we foreclosed.

There was a redemption period for six months. We eventually got into the property. This was in Michigan and within one hour, apparently child protective services was called because it was the children were living in such despicable conditions. And so I feel like this redemption law was there to protect the borrower and the family, but it actually ended up. Hurting the kids and this just, you know, I wish we could have gotten in sooner and gotten the situation resolved more quickly. So on one hand we're big, bad, evil real estate investors who are greedy, you know, trying to take a property and put people out on the street.

On the other hand, this was not going to resolve itself in this situation. We needed to intervene and get them a fresh start. So I've been so impressed with the note investing community in general of, we are so not the big bad guys. Like. No, like the so many that I've talked to and we're trying to help and we're trying to make things better. Yeah. Um, sometimes the best situation is to have them start over and get out and do something else. And, and that can be a hard thing. And, and like you say, Dave feeling guilty because you're the one that has to be the person that says, okay, well, this is the way it's going to go.

something else. And, and that can be a hard thing. And, and like you say, Dave feeling guilty because you're the one that has to be the person that says, okay, well, this is the way it's going to go. And from our outside perspective, we can see that this is going to be the best way forward for everybody, but it can still be hard. But yeah. We try, we really, I think in, and in general, I think we actually do a far better job than banks. I think we're far better at helping people get off, you know, get either back on their feet or onto the next property or whatever it is. I think we're kind of like being a parent.

I mean, sometimes you got to do things that are, that are in the short term painful for the, the child, if you, you know, or the borrower, but it's are in their best, is in their best interest. So Jamie, we'll put your information in the show notes. But I think for us, it's just, it's just, you're right. We are a community of people who care, which is odd for lenders. Right. But also understanding that the situation's not always the same when you walk into it's very hard to say you have two deals are identical. It's just hard to do that because these things are people, they're humans. They have life's two areas where a performing note can default tomorrow because of a life chain.

Now blink of an eye. And it is frustrating. Because sometimes we can't help people, but on the other side of it, we can help investors who are looking to get into a space and learn something different where landlording may not be for them, or they have some rentals and they're looking to diversify somewhere, or they're in a W2 job where they actually have some skills that they can transfer over. All those kinds of assets is available for you. So it's great. The fact that Jamie, you provide this mentorship for those who are looking to learn and grow, and be part of a bigger world, because I'm sure as you know, once you enter this world, you become sucked in with everyone.

Everyone knows each other. Right. For sure. And it's an amazing community. Absolutely. So I'm going to let Nathan answer the final question. you become sucked in with everyone. Everyone knows each other. Right. For sure. And it's an amazing community. Absolutely. So I'm going to let Nathan answer the final question. Yeah. And what he comes up with. Uh-oh. Yeah. And so you've been around long enough now. You've had enough experience looking at different deals, and just the economic situation in general. And then you've got family. Yeah. That has dealt with this to boot. So all of that, given all of that, what are you thinking is going to happen here in the next 12, 24 months? Like what are you looking to focus on? I don't know.

I think real estate values will probably stay relatively flat. I feel like rates aren't going to change a lot, although rates don't affect us as much as many people on the outside think they do. Mortgage rates I'm talking about. Yeah. I think default rates are probably going to continue to tick up a little bit. But historically, they're not that high, really, if you zoom out. This is a boring answer, but I don't think a whole lot is going to change, to be honest. Okay. Maybe. And I also know that when you get into the world of predicting, it's hard. It's dangerous territory. Is there somewhere you see a twist where you're looking to invest more into in the lender? We've pivoted more recently into seconds, actually, partially because the returns are higher, and partially because that's just kind of what it's presented itself.

And people generally have equity. Yeah. Yeah. And for our business, we've expanded our buy box. We've bought some of the HUD HECM loans that I think before we hit record, we were talking about. And people generally have equity. Yeah. Yeah. And for our business, we've expanded our buy box. We've bought some of the HUD HECM loans that I think before we hit record, we were talking about. And so I just think for us, expanding that buy box, expanding, just being open to seller financing, doing more seller financing, I think you guys talk about that a good bit on your show. Yeah. We've done that more recently.

So I would say that's going to probably grow in the near future, in the next one to two years. Maybe that's the answer for you. Yeah. There's the prediction. Yeah. So I think for us is being more open to when we do take back a property is creating a note. And that's not something I had done a lot of before, but we're doing that more and more in one-off situations now. And so I think that's something people should learn is merging the real estate and the lender, just completing that cycle of knowledge, if you will. I do just want to mention if you're okay, labradorlending.com. I know you're going to put my information in the show notes.

Yeah. That's our website, labradorlending.com. You can click on investors if people want to reach out. That's awesome. So thank you very much, guys. Yeah. Hang out for after hours, man. I appreciate it, Jamie, for your time, your experience, just your gratitude, and being part of the call today. And guys, I'll be putting this stuff in the show notes and these links and everything else. If you have any questions, feel free to reach out. And Nathan and I will be back soon for some more topics coming up this fall, but make sure you get over to the Diversified Mortgage Expo and get your... It's virtual.

It's free. It's free. To come in, check it out, learn some stuff, and share with a friend. So, enjoy your afternoon, guys. Be well, be safe, take care. Take care. Thank you. Thank you. Bye-bye. Bye-bye..