Real Estate Note Investing Self Directed IRA Retirement Investors | Real Estate Notes Show

Episode: Real Estate Note Investing Self Directed IRA Retirement Investors Dave's Goals and Plans: - Closing on a single note this week and funding today - Accepting offers on approximately 6-7 assets that are moving forward - Just closed on a low-priced asset at $16.5k with quick turnaround expected due to judgment already passed and foreclosure date pending - Emphasizes importance of adjusting strategy without putting yourself in a bad spot Nathan's Goals and Plans: - Looking at a large tape with Dave last week, waiting to hear back on bids - Focusing on understanding how to analyze data and account for all possible scenarios - Prefers not to run poor assets despite market pressure, weighing positives and negatives of each deal Key Recommendations: - Price assets accordingly and be strategic about what you pursue rather than pursuing everything - Maintain seller relationships even if accepting lower returns, as it creates pipeline for future deals - Understand and justify your investment decisions to sellers on both sides - Leverage self-directed IRAs through custodians like MainStar to access retirement funds for note investing - Look beyond traditional stock market investments - nearly any asset you can take title to can be held in a self-directed IRA Topics Discussed: - Current market conditions and availability of note assets - Asset acquisition strategy and offer process - Self-directed IRA basics and legality - Difference between traditional IRAs and self-directed IRAs - Alternative investments allowed in retirement accounts - IRA funding methods and contribution limits - Rolling over 401k to IRA when changing employment - Risk assessment and deal selection criteria Guest Insights: - Self-directed IRAs have been available since 1978 and are legal for alternative investments like real estate notes - IRAs are inherently self-directed - you make the investment decisions, not the custodian - You can invest in nearly anything in a self-directed IRA except life insurance, collectibles, and certain precious metals - Most Americans (approximately 95%) are unaware of self-directed IRA investing capabilities - Traditional IRAs and Roth IRAs can both be structured as self-directed accounts - 401k rollovers to IRAs only available after severing employment with that company [Music] hey everybody dave putz here from jkp holdings sorry for delay a little technical issues alongside me as always mr nathan turner how are you man i'm doing well a couple times this week yeah yeah so you know things are going crazy um it's been fun but i think things are turning around for the space we saw a large tape recently and a bunch of assets coming through um and we had some good questions we actually met last night with a group of people and there was some interesting conversation about how people are moving forward what they're doing how they're doing it and different different strategies are bidding and whatnot yeah and getting these assets um for me it's just understanding how to adjust self without putting yourself in a bad spot yeah that's it and and learning how to see the data uh in a way that you can analyze it and you're not missing anything and you're taking into account all the different possible scenarios and and that kind of thing so absolutely there's a lot that goes into it but especially so with that said um how are things been with you and you've put some offers in as well as we have um has anything been successful for you recently uh there's that large tape that you and i looked at last week and this week i haven't heard anything back on that maybe that's good news i don't know um in the meantime i was able to go into contract on a single note uh just this week so that's great um i'm actually funding on that today and and we'll get moving on that so yeah always something always something so it's interesting to say that you know we've saw some message recently some private installers have been sending some stuff um and we're doing this on about six seven assets that we got accepted offers on um so we're moving forward with it yeah for me it's you know i don't want to we see a lot of people saying oh i want all these assets i want to run successful assets i don't want to run poor assets right that's a that's a headache we have well and and that's the thing is and yeah at a certain point you have to kind of weigh the the positives and negatives because is is a lower return better than zero probably uh but at the same time do you want to take on a headache loan that's just going to be problems all the way through and so you got to kind of weigh that out and see what's going to make more sense for you and one of the members in our community last night talked about you know what is it worth it to be you know all is pricing is frustrating and arguing and arguing and whatnot but at the same time we we struggle with people who um sellers want what they want when they want it and the problem is you know someone made a comment last night that they're they couldn't believe that you know sellers don't put pricing on things um and it's frustrating but yeah i think it's not the old days we used to get a lot of pricing we don't get as much we used to no and i i actually i see it from the seller's point of view definitely uh is why would i put a price on that uh when it's in the eye of the beholder you know if you've got somebody who's fresh out of some kind of a training they're probably gonna price it higher than somebody who's more experienced and so it just economically makes more sense for the seller to just accept bids because a lot of times they're in a spot where it's better is it's a better opportunity for them to actually sell it because you're right people are ecstatic about the fact that they can win an asset yeah um and they want to get started jump in so are those bad assets out there i don't think there are i think there's a lot of good assets out there um it's just making sure you price them accordingly and right now it's a seller's market it's like saying well you know who's out there buying rentals like crazy right now who's buying houses like crazy right now yeah and most people say well that doesn't really work well for you and most people say you know 50607 singing the sideline was probably the best strategy you could have had yeah yeah so inactivity i don't agree with being bad activity strategic it is strategic and and then again you got to weigh those options because um you know we've talked about this so many times in the past is this is very much relationship based so it's to me it's worth it to buy something uh expecting a bit of a lower return that i'm accustomed to but a something's better than nothing and b i keep that relationship with the seller alive and and you know momentum and uh and they know when they've got something if even if it's just a one-off or they're only selling one note you know they'll call me before they call somebody else because they know i'm i'm still purchasing and we just bought something you know within the last few weeks yeah and i think for me yeah why don't you justify it that's all it matters yeah you know yeah and it has to make sense for us both sides yeah so i think it's frustrating because a lot of people think well you know it's why not why not why can't we do something well get to justify what you did or didn't do to sellers yeah that's right that's right so so this note that i just am closing on today just so happens hey fellow no investor are you looking to learn the basics of note investing so you can get started however you don't want to spend a few hundreds or thousands of dollars and hours online on some training program have you thought about attending a notes conference however you don't want to spend the money or the time away from your family well we have a tremendous beginners video series of 20 different topics with each video being less than 15 minutes this means each video is less fluff and direct to the content visit www.jkpholdings.com beginner dash series to learn more again www.jkpholdings.com slash beginner dash series uh it fits perfectly with our guest today because it's it's uh an investor that i have that's using their ira funds and this is a low priced asset i'm only paying 16.5 for it i don't have the rest of the numbers in front of me but but it's a relatively low purchase price um we're expecting actually a quick turnaround on this their their judgment's already passed we're just waiting for a date for foreclosure so yeah it's i expect it to get paid off or to auction off at uh at auction foreclosure auction so this is probably going to be a pretty quick turnaround in somebody's ira uh the irr on this and it's going to be ridiculous so for those who are not familiar with it right we talked to people last night that funding is a struggle for them finding money in the struggle for them and they don't feel comfortable talking to just anybody um what they don't realize they actually may have some money already yeah most people do yeah most people do they've got something that they didn't even know they had it's it's something that they say i think what four or five percent of america knows about wow that's crazy you know and if you think that way why not make it available to those who don't know about it but just struggle with it so retirement money is something that people are very careful with but they also like have some kind of control some understanding of it because the stock market's just nuts so and it's nice if you get some education if you understand something about uh whether it's notes or anything else but but figure out some kind of investment because you can make a whole lot better than a bond at two percent you can do much much much better yeah so without further ado we have carmen here from uh main trust so carmen i want you before we get too crazy what is ira what is this whole idea of vehicle investing with retired money and is it legal absolutely um so the irs started tax return accounts retirement accounts clear back in the early 70s you know there they originally though the purpose was more geared towards cds and and small things but as it's developed you know we've gotten more experienced with alternative investments and so that's one of the things that mainstar specializes in is allowing those types of alternative investments we've been doing it since 1978 so we have quite a bit of experience with it where you can use your ira proceeds you know if you have 401k that you've rolled over and tend to you know it opens up a whole nother bucket of money that people don't realize that they they can use to you know venture venture and pool together with you know their personal money or a spouse's account um so yeah we we totally do that it's legal there are some restrictions to that you know we can get into the nitty-gritty of that as we go okay so for those who are not familiar with this whole idea um how do you get an ira star where the the strategy of getting ira started so there's a couple ways you can fund your ira um most commonly people are you know at becoming retirement age and they've they've got a 401k that they're looking at doing something with they can transfer over their 401k or if you already have an ira established you can transfer that money or make additional contributions and so you know you can make six thousand dollar contributions unless you're you know making catch-up contributions over that age fifty and so even though it's not a significant amount every year that you can contribute you know that that retirement income that you have from from prior employment you can pull that all together like i said and and it can make a pretty healthy little account that you can use for investments for real estate nodes and things like that so can you transfer say you're you work a regular 9 to 5 you've got a 401k as part of your employment package can you just roll that over into an rra no you can't once you sever employment with that company then that opens that up and you can transfer that into an ira um but as you're still employed there it stays in that 401k okay but if i work somewhere for five or ten years and then i change jobs but i still have my old 401k that one i can transfer over absolutely very interesting and then what's the difference between an ira and a self-directed ira we hear a lot about that so they're all self-directed in reality um we main star you know and any other custodian that you're going to be involved with we don't make investment decisions on your behalf we don't do any type of tax or legal advice so that's where that self-direction is involved you decide what investments you want to purchase mainstar we don't do any due diligence on those investments so that's where that self-direction comes from if you want to take money out of your account you direct us to take money out of the account if you want to contribute it in you're directing us to do that um and that that's really the focus that of that self-direction now you can have different types of accounts as a self-directed account so you can have a traditional ira or a roth ira there's there's a slew of different kinds you know employer plans that are available as well interesting and you know one of the things with ira investing is you're right all ira investing is self-directed either you're doing a mutual fund or you're picking your your situation or you're picking stocks right i i think the mythology out there is that all you can do with your retirement is put into mutual funds in the stock market what else can you invest in and for those who people who are new we know that you probably know this stuff but there's a lot of people who are on this core or listening and on the youtube channel later on um that may not know i can invest in other things in stock market yes absolutely so really um you can invest in nearly anything there are a few restrictions that the irs supplies you cannot invest in life insurance you cannot invest in collectibles or some special metals for example you can't have a wine collection in your ira but really doesn't matter if it's something you can take title to for example real estate or a promissory note where you know you are the the on the node it's drafted in the ira's name partnerships you can hold a partnership um so really anything that you can take ownership where the ira would take ownership to um we have a slew of things you can invest in we it's not necessarily limited we do have some people you know choose to form limited liability companies and then they and that limit liability company will go on and do the investments in the limited liability company you know so there there's a lot of flexibility with it um we obviously have investors that aren't comfortable doing that more advanced type stuff so they still might invest in those cds or mutual funds and bonds and we do all that as well so it really just depends on how savvy you want to be and obviously there's more risk involved with some of that other investing cool so you don't necessarily have a list that you can point somebody to they would have to come with their idea and you'd say yeah that's okay or not okay we have both so on our website mainstar trust.com you can we do have a list of special asset types that we do allow um but you know if anybody has questions on that we have our customer service department is well versed on what types of investments you can do or if you question whether something is an option or um you know how to how to go about doing it you can call our customer service team and they will help educate you on on that like i said again you know kind of always that disclosure we we don't give advice on how to invest or what to invest in but we can help educate you on what the rules are kind of around what the irs allows as well as prohibited transactions involved in that i know a lot of people i mean steve lloyd definitely brags about you know roth iras and super sizing stuff now you can take an ira and duplicate it quick quadruple their returns on it by doing strategy with real estate you know people are you know maybe they get a house under contract for a dollar and next you know they get a thousand dollar check for that broker thing and then all of a sudden their roth ira rate that they bought what a dollar is now a thousand dollars and those kind of things are you able to do those kind of processes and how fast can you you know how long does it take because right now if you're going to buy anything real estate related it takes time to close on the house how long does it take to buy it with your ira well let's let's back up just a sec because you know there there are additional steps with iras it's not um you know it's not going to be the fastest process depending on where you're at in the scenario you know you obviously have to have your account set up you have to have it funded so if you are doing a transfer from another institution another ira custodian or you have a 401k and you're wanting to move money that can take a little while you know you've got both financial institutions processing paperwork and moving money so you always want to kind of have that planned out get your account established make sure it's funded and then for main star and every custodian does this a little bit differently but main star we do have a form we call an asset information worksheet so when you pick an investment let's say a promissory note you you provide that note to us you give us a draft of that note and you fill out this particular form what we do is is we make sure that note has all the terms that we require you know we can see the interest rate we know what the payable uh what the payments are and what the maturity date and those you know standard things um we also need to make sure that whoever is in charge of that or you know if it was a partnership you know the managing members or whatever and we have their contact information we know you know who to go to if we have questions and and also those companies have to you know review our terms of of the thousand information worksheet and make sure they understand as custodian what our responsibilities are because we do have some obligations um so you know they they need to fill that form out send it in and then we we review that asset just to make sure it's feasible for us to hold that again that they will provide us valuations which are required that you know that can be a struggle sometimes depending on the investment things like they have to be able to re-register investments um or you know for rmd purposes there's a lot of variables that go into this so that process can take a little while um main star what what we usually say is 24 to 48 hours to have that asset reviewed on our books and again we are just making sure it's administratively feasible for us to hold that all those requirements that we need to fulfill our obligation to the irs that that asset company is understanding of that so once that's reviewed on our books you know again this promissory note example we would review the note we'll set that up on our system and then really at that point the investor the account holder is just going to fill out our purchase authorization and request funding and again there are some steps that go they're involved with that documentation that we would need and you know then we we usually try and have funding done within 24 to 48 hours as well so we try and turn it around just as quickly as we can but i think it is critical for investors to remember that there are some of these additional steps that need to be taken in advance you know establishing the account funding the account making sure that your custodian can hold that type of investment you know main star we we specialize in the alternative world um but some custodians don't um or they may be less familiar with you know certain types of investments and other and more familiar with real estate in particular so you kind of got to find the right fit for you as an investor so for example if somebody wanted to invest in say a note fund one that has been newly established but has a very experienced known investor behind it what kind of documentation would you need for that person so it yeah in that scenario just to clarify is that note fund is it a partnership a limited liability company or is it we would actually have ownership in the the promissory note in that case it's an llp okay so in those situations we really just need you know whatever formation documents you would have formed so you would submit the asset information worksheet along with either the memorandum operating agreement subscription documents whatever documents you have as that business unit and that's what we would need up front for that initial review process and then really when you go to purchase the investment again our purchase authorization and then whatever subscription documents you might require from the asset side so let's make sure we're clear one thing too you guys won't say a deal is a good deal or not nor would you guys give an opinion if the deal as a disqualified participant would that be accurate um we don't we do not do any due diligence on the asset uh in conversations if we recognize something as being a prohibited transaction yes we will point it out to you and we want to do full disclosure on that up front you know i had a situation actually just yesterday where um an investor wanted to to create a brand new promissory note she says i'm lending it to um my llc and i okay well yeah how's that going to work because this is your llc she would be considered a prohibited person she was wanting to do a franchise and she wanted to use her 401k money and fund a promissory note to her personal business to open this franchise you know so we quickly kind of knit that in the button you know i apologize you know you need to refresh yourself with prohibited transactions but her as the ira owner is a disqualified person so it you know we like i said we always if we recognize something um you tell us at those tidbits we're going to point them out to you and refer you back to the irs code just so you can read it as as we are familiar with it and make sure you know what you can and can't do i got you so you know you guys don't need to do diligence for them right but what do you do is the accounting for the asset you actually the the ira is set up and it's not inside their personal name it's inside entities company right and that ira can't pay you can't pay for any expenses nor work on any part of that asset regarding notes right typically rentals is paintbrush and all that good stuff but with notes you can't self-service because you can't advantage that note is that correct that's correct yeah you can't benefit from it self-service you know you can't hire yourself as the general contractor you you know the irs is focused on you know this is retirement money and it and it's being set away for retirement money so they feel that you know you as benefiting from you know maybe being a self-contractor you are you're wreaking a benefit before that retirement so that that is where they get into that you know you can't work on it you can't have your son or daughter work on it you know you have linear descendants your parents you know so it's really important that people kind of do their homework before they just jump in full force on an ira because there are some really important things to consider as far as what your intentions are who's involved um you know even things like having your son's construction business do it that's still a prohibited person prohibited business because your son owns that business so it is important um because the tax consequences are huge if you do have a prohibited transaction and it would disqualify the ira so it's number thing to think about but you could go into a deal with your son if you're fifty percent in their fifty percent correct yeah yep you can go into you can do joint ventures partnerships um we do it quite quite frequently and it is a way to leverage more money um so maybe a husband wife husband son daughter they can partner like accounts you know you can use your maybe your you and your son's traditional iras and maybe your wife has a roth and then maybe you've got some personal money so especially in the note world you can pull that money together what is most important about that is that the titling is accurate you know we would be looking to make sure you know everybody if are they 25 owners or what and then as interests and payments come back those have to be divvied out proportionately back to the owners so you as the you know if you had it in both your ira and personally you can't take your ira's money and use it you got to pay the ira back same with expenses and expenses really happens more on the real estate side you know if you are taking direct title to property it is critical that any expenses and income flows through the ira so you mentioned there a minute ago about the tax consequences being huge what does that mean like we're not talking about a slap on the wrist what are the consequences i i will have to double check but i believe it's 50 penalty and it disqualifies the ira um from the beginning of the year so that whole amount of the ira would be shown as a distribution to you on a 1099 time so you don't lose the entire ira you just lose that year uh no you would lose the entire ira it just happened that that particular year yeah yeah so i also i learned uh in one of the conferences we went to a couple years ago and i backed up real quick and i didn't realize this for those who are watching i'll give you a little tidbit i had been partnered with personally with another one of my partners on a couple deals and then i took my iras let's keep going and i joined venture with them for my rape with them on a deal come to find out sitting with jeff watson about some stuff and realized that that person because we are 50 personally we are now that person is now a disqualified participant and i couldn't do a joint venture in my ira because of the fact that we are personally connecting 50 50 on a deal so for those who don't know this is well like participant most people think it's up and down there are other features like your white and what's like that um but yeah i was amazed when i found out that i was 50 50 over here i could not be any 10 20 or 50 or anything with my array because i was 50 it was interesting right yeah absolutely i mean not you know like i said i it is really important for people to do their homework and do their own due diligence not only on the investments on but on what type of account they're opening and what the rules and regulations are that the irs has established yeah with that said i know one of the things that we kind of work on a lot is you know the process of buying a note with the ira so once we establish the fact that we want to buy this asset with this note with our asset we contact you go through all the paperwork right and then everything that goes through that asset has to go through your the custodian all payments all the income has to go to the custodian right all the paperwork signed like initial but then you guys have to initially actually sign the purchase sale agreement right yeah that's correct yep uh and and it's important you know i mentioned it earlier that we have to have title to that so even if it's secured by real estate you know that that does have to be titled in the ira's name so the note may be drawn or the partnership may be drawn and if it is secured like i said by that property more in the note situation then main star would be listed on the actual deed or if we were holding direct title to the um in in more of your limited partnership or llp situation you know that partnership is going to hold title and your ira ira would just be listed as a member of that so that is a little bit different so for those buying notes with your ira or using somebody else's ira to buy a notes um tip just from experiences yeah tell the seller that it's coming from an ira yes because if you say okay we're going to close on wednesday uh iras like we're saying it takes an extra couple of days at least and so just just make sure everybody's aware you don't want to take anyone off you don't want to you don't want to lose this deal because you said you were going to close wednesday and then it takes two or three days for the funding to come through so just make sure that the seller's aware usually that's not a problem yeah but just make sure that that's being said out loud do you understand if you're on the process and the seller seller knows you're going through a custodian that you can't control it right who knows carmen may get sick and she's supposed to sign a day and has to get passed on so things happen with that right so um it's it's something that you just have to establish with the seller when you're going through the process and if you can tell them the sooner the better hey listen fyi i'll be fine as my ira so closing may be kind of delayed a day or so hopefully we'll be on time get him up off the date just let them know now carmen i know with notes um all documentation mods your servicing agreement all the assignments have to have on the title of the irs um when the note is the collateral file is that something that you guys typically want to hold on to how do you handle the collateral file for documentation stuff we don't require to be to hold on to it you know we we often have note servicers that are involved and we kind of let them manage a lot of that we like to have obviously a copy of the signed completed note but moving past that we don't get too involved in the all the fine paperwork and everything involved um it's more of than just making sure that payments are being applied back to the ira and that you know those are coming to us ach check you know however we have a variety of ways that everything comes back so like i said i mean really our big thing is making sure we have a copy of the the signed note including any um deed or you know copy of the security and dating um but we don't require to hold it physically or anything like that that's awesome that's good and you know i think some of the stuff that we worried about with iras is the prohibited people and the prohibited transactions um do you guys hold any kind of trainings or webinars or you know additional information to help investors to know hey listen i i i i'm curious because you know what it seems to me every time i talk to somebody who does ira investing they have a new strategy that i've never heard of before and it's so cool like whoa right um you know it went from i didn't know anything about this thing too you can do this with it you know the wholesale paper buy a product for a dollar and get it out i'm like that's crazy but it happens yeah you guys full attack trainings education so we don't currently have any webinars or online training or anything like that at the moment um that's another process as you guys know um we really focus more on these types of situations where we can meet with you guys really the asset sponsors um and go through you know with your with your customers and um what the options are you know as a custodian though we we do have a great customer service team that you are more than welcome to call and kind of discuss different options and again they can help with the educational side of it and it that happens daily we have people you know i heard about something you know how do i do that and so we we take those phone calls daily just kind of help you out and maybe redirect you to some of that educational stuff our website does have quite a bit uh you know of information out there and and we're always adding to and enhancing that so you know if nothing else you know call us send me an email whatever and we'll help out however we can cool great that education part is so important because like you said at the beginning dave so many people don't know about iras in general yeah so just learning about an ira for the first time there's some education that goes behind that and then on top of that is okay so then what can i invest in and what can i not and so that education part is pretty key when you learn this stuff you can walk around a rhea with people who have money landlords and you start talking like whoa whoa whoa what do you mean by what you're doing and it's like well you know i'm asset strong i don't have any money ready to go it's like well do you have ira money and just by saying that and people realizing that you're talking about something never heard of before they're pretty impressed with that conversation they're like whoa this person actually knows something i don't know and and even if they've had more experience years this new angle was something they're attracted to so they'll they'll talk to you for a little while um and hear what you have to say and notes the same thing um for the ongoing process of payment what is the typical cost to have these assets managed in as a custodian is it expensive thousands of dollars a year um and what are the costs usually held so you know a lot of custodians fee structures vary some choose to even do their fee structures on a market value based we don't do that you know our opinion is you want your retirement balance to grow and so we don't want to penalize you for just constantly charging more as your account value increases so we charge a flat fee a flat annual fee and then depending on what type of investments that you hold in the account there is a an annual special asset fee for that and then really past that it's just transaction based so as you purchase or sell investments there's a fee associated with that or if you were to need to take distributions out of the account maybe to satisfy a required distribution you know there's minimal fees associated with issuing a check to you so really the fee structure is pretty simple we the flat annual fee is 110 for a traditional or roth account and then to hold like a limited partnership limit liability company something like that you're looking an additional 36 dollar special asset fee on an annual basis and then a like i said the transaction fees 25 to purchase into something if you're if you're looking at promissory notes where you're actually drafting a note the fee structure is a little bit higher and additionally if you are looking to hold direct title into real estate that fee structure is also a little bit higher as well so pretty feasible you know a couple hundred dollars to kind of get you going and we do have a you know minimal special uh setup fee that you would once you establish an account with us of 25 dollars so i don't know what all that added back up to but it is pretty minimal on an annual basis because i don't presume you guys are aware of the you know you guys are able to do a back door off for those who have an income higher than the threshold for roth of converting a traditional over to a roth every year and getting that raw feature um and i'm sure that happened a lot with a lot of clientele so those who may be at a higher income you can still do the roth through what they call the back door roth and get that bonus money getting it started right and then traditional versus roth plays the game of what you choose to do obviously you can contribute traditional but you can contribute roth um can you know do you guys get involved with the idea of you know managing the the asset uh bills and structure or is everything from the client to you and you just pay it out is that relatively or do bills be sent directly to you guys the only situation where billing would be sent to us would be in a situation where they're holding direct title to that property because in that situation any you know real estate taxes all all those expenses if you have someone mowing your lawn that that'll have to be paid by the ira but in the situation where there's a partnership or a limited liability company that you're investing into that partnership that company is handling all the ins and outs of that daily operation and those expenses so mainstar's not involved with that process we're really involved with the funding that we would you know issue that purchase money into and then if there were you know interest payments dividend payments that money comes back and we apply that back into your account that's awesome so even with the fees and everything else like we're talking if you get a performing note for example i mean you're talking about less than one month of uh monthly payment from the borrower paying for your ira that's pretty good deal that's a great deal it's it's amazing with all this going on with real estate way it is right now um ira investing i'm seeing in the next probably 24 months is going to be huge um inflation going up everything else but everyone's been continuing to the roth ira or traditional ira throughout this time and they have a lump sum of money you know for investors out there looking to get into space who may have some money do you recommend ira investing to real estate as a deploy or is that more of an advanced strategy would you say you know it's a little bit of both we we don't recommend one way or the other um but when those investors do call we need to make sure you understand that if you are investing in that real estate that it is more advanced then you need to be more aware um prohibited transactions things like that because they often think you know i can i can go and and change the locks on the house or i can shop for you know new living room furniture if they're using it for a vacation rental house or something like that and you can't you know that's where it becomes more risky because you can be more more close to those prohibited transactions so that that's usually what we remind people of you know and your guy's a situation where investors are really just you know investing in um your your partnership or your company there's less risk less risk of them you know running into those prohibited transactions so that is a little bit of a safer model for people guys don't move into the house for a week and hang out there because you can lose your entire ira by doing this yeah it's not a smart move uh or people often think they can invest in a condo and you know go vacation there one week of the month or whatever and you can't you know that sounds great but until you distribute that property to you at retirement age uh you can't take that benefit from it yeah it was interesting and good to know you've got to know these different yeah things because eventually carmen you got to get ira up in canada because nathan being in canada they don't have an option for ira we've got a different one ours is called the tax free savings account uh very very similar the downside with the tfsa is that we don't have as many options of what we can invest into if i can self-direct it but i have to buy something that's publicly traded so i can't buy real estate because that's not publicly traded so it's it's limited but at the other on the other hand i don't i can withdraw at any time uh without penalty yeah so that's a pretty huge advantage but at the same time i can only do publicly traded stuff so i i'm basically limited to stocks and things like that so we had a question from uh goodwin uh the question was regarding re-categorizing traditional ir money to roth thus incurring taxes are those funds considered w2 or earned income as well um it's a cpa question but karma evil did yeah as custodian what we would actually do is we report that as on a 1099 tax form so it would show as a distribution out as our income yeah what i typically do if you have some money you're just putting into a traditional is change it over the next day so that you know you can quickly go from a traditional roth unless you have a bunch of money sitting there just don't let it gain any kind of income that you're paying taxes on but if you do that angle a year of you know 6500 hours and then just convert it over the next day it's well actually i do at the same time but um they cover it over the time of the day you know that's the strategy of doing it right um but good way hopefully we answer that question so carmen we're we're always curious about our the experts we have on here and and what's coming up what are what are some things that we see coming up um they've mentioned a few minutes ago about uh ira usage uh going up in the future is that something that you guys foresee or or do you have any thoughts on that um absolutely yeah we do you know it just really depends on the investors you know the the irs is kind of always adopting and changing the rules and regulations you know so you kind of got to be savvy with what changes are being made by them let alone what's available in the industry um you know a lot of people are really kind of getting into some of the bitcoin stuff and so we're adopting and exposing you know getting exposure to that it it's always changing you know and right now real estate has been a popular item promissory notes corporations are always a popular item we don't do near as much investing into the bonds and stocks as we used to but we're not necessarily geared towards that we do it we allow it our focus is really on the alternative investments so um you know there it's always changing you just never know what what people are going to be interested in are you seeing from the clientele you've had are you hearing any kind of whisper to what their thoughts are or what their strategies are and are you guys seeing a dip or an increase at all right now in self-directed ira would real estate at all where do you see do you see any of that kind of stuff going on any trends that you see coming up or that have been happening we don't necessarily have a lot of those conversations with our investors you know they uh when they come to us they're ready to make that move on what they're wanting to go forward with um so we don't i i unfortunately don't really have a great answer to that um but i you know real estate has been a hot item um like i said bitcoin we always have demand people are anxious to do that i think you know it's the popular thing um otherwise the the reliable things that we always see day in and day out are those notes and investing in partnerships so i'm just curious to keep stats on on what people are investing in uh sort of limited liability companies and and promissory notes are our number two one and two items that that we see activity in right so just to clarify that what people may not know is you can actually start a company with your ira and fund the entire company and then they call it rob right you can fund the entire company with roth money or with traditional money so if you want to start any kind of business and you completely could be funded by ira money profits earned all that stuff goes from the business which is pretty cool um you know partner with your you know kid or whatever they put in somebody you guys started business together you can do that kind of stuff which is really really fun um it's a nice way to get the business started with your retirement money and have motivation for it right absolutely yeah what you're referring to is some of we hear just checklist control llc's uh those are extremely common where people are using their retirement money they're forming that llc using that retirement money you know they they can have multiple members of that llc like you said maybe a father-son situation and and and maybe they are flipping houses or but they're doing that all within that llc so as custodian you know there are some different rules and regulations about that um but we just see the front end where we're funding the llc and then that gives them that control where they have that checkbook control to invest into product or investments real estate whatever it may be um and and kind of the same thing you know when when there's profit from that it has to come back to the ira you know or if they were to liquidate that fund it has to come back to the ira and that's where some people often you know mess up a little where they may take a distribution and and put it in their personal checking account or something and that's where that fine line is so that is again some of that more advanced investing where people need to be extremely cautious and aware of what the rules and regulations are you know do you guys handle checkbook ira or is that something that the investor has to learn and build themselves so we allow to click llc's to be in the account we are not any part of the formation of the llc nor do we have control over the checkbook and that's what the managing member of that llc would be responsible for um you know there it is again something that investors need to to understand what the irs's opinion of them are and and we we do require an extra um kind of a legal you know that they understand that it's not a prohibited transaction so if that is something someone's interested in doing you know give us a call and we can talk about that a little bit more of what the requirements are and kind of you know what role we take or don't take but it like i said it it's that extra you got to think about you know what the prohibited transactions are and usually we recommend people to make sure they seek legal or tax advice on on the formation of that yeah that's awesome well carmen i think the information here has been valuable um your knowledge is impeccable i give dollar credit um what we can do is if anyone uh let me bring up the link for everyone for the feed and whatnot if they want to get you know current information or if they want to um you know find more information get in contact i'm going to give you guys a link to a form i'll just have you fill it out and then we'll send it right to carmen um and you can go right from there and you know have any questions concerns issues um let me post it now what seconds feel free to fill form out i'll send to carmen we can reach out to you guys we have there's some information on their servicing their costs on stuff to dive into it having a flat fee maybe it's big in the beginning but as you grow your account that flat fee makes a lot more sense uh because as you grow you're gonna hit more and more with your fee going up um it's a short term game the other way but this is a long-term play retirement's you know years away hopefully for some of the guys i know for uh you know myself i'm only 22 years old so i have many years right um so you know carmen it's been awesome to have you on here i appreciate you giving your knowledge uh and sharing some of the the basics as well some of the advanced information and share some of the just personal knowledge you have um in attraction there so again thank you very much for joining us yeah thank you that was really good if you have any further questions guys feel free to reach out to karma reach out to us and we'll go from there you [Music] hey everybody dave putz here from jkp holdings sorry for delay a little technical issues alongside me as always mr nathan turner how are you man i'm doing well a couple times this week yeah yeah so you know things are going crazy um it's been fun but i think things are turning around for the space we saw a large tape recently and a bunch of assets coming through um and we had some good questions we actually met last night with a group of people and there was some interesting conversation about how people are moving forward what they're doing how they're doing it and different different strategies are bidding and whatnot yeah and getting these assets um for me it's just understanding how to adjust self without putting yourself in a bad spot yeah that's it and and learning how to see the data uh in a way that you can analyze it and you're not missing anything and you're taking into account all the different possible scenarios and and that kind of thing so absolutely there's a lot that goes into it but especially so with that said um how are things been with you and you've put some offers in as well as we have um has anything been successful for you recently uh there's that large tape that you and i looked at last week and this week i haven't heard anything back on that maybe that's good news i don't know um in the meantime i was able to go into contract on a single note uh just this week so that's great um i'm actually funding on that today and and we'll get moving on that so yeah always something always something so it's interesting to say that you know we've saw some message recently some private installers have been sending some stuff um and we're doing this on about six seven assets that we got accepted offers on um so we're moving forward with it yeah for me it's you know i don't want to we see a lot of people saying oh i want all these assets i want to run successful assets i don't want to run poor assets right that's a that's a headache we have well and and that's the thing is and yeah at a certain point you have to kind of weigh the the positives and negatives because is is a lower return better than zero probably uh but at the same time do you want to take on a headache loan that's just going to be problems all the way through and so you got to kind of weigh that out and see what's going to make more sense for you and one of the members in our community last night talked about you know what is it worth it to be you know all is pricing is frustrating and arguing and arguing and whatnot but at the same time we we struggle with people who um sellers want what they want when they want it and the problem is you know someone made a comment last night that they're they couldn't believe that you know sellers don't put pricing on things um and it's frustrating but yeah i think it's not the old days we used to get a lot of pricing we don't get as much we used to no and i i actually i see it from the seller's point of view definitely uh is why would i put a price on that uh when it's in the eye of the beholder you know if you've got somebody who's fresh out of some kind of a training they're probably gonna price it higher than somebody who's more experienced and so it just economically makes more sense for the seller to just accept bids because a lot of times they're in a spot where it's better is it's a better opportunity for them to actually sell it because you're right people are ecstatic about the fact that they can win an asset yeah um and they want to get started jump in so are those bad assets out there i don't think there are i think there's a lot of good assets out there um it's just making sure you price them accordingly and right now it's a seller's market it's like saying well you know who's out there buying rentals like crazy right now who's buying houses like crazy right now yeah and most people say well that doesn't really work well for you and most people say you know 50607 singing the sideline was probably the best strategy you could have had yeah yeah so inactivity i don't agree with being bad activity strategic it is strategic and and then again you got to weigh those options because um you know we've talked about this so many times in the past is this is very much relationship based so it's to me it's worth it to buy something uh expecting a bit of a lower return that i'm accustomed to but a something's better than nothing and b i keep that relationship with the seller alive and and you know momentum and uh and they know when they've got something if even if it's just a one-off or they're only selling one note you know they'll call me before they call somebody else because they know i'm i'm still purchasing and we just bought something you know within the last few weeks yeah and i think for me yeah why don't you justify it that's all it matters yeah you know yeah and it has to make sense for us both sides yeah so i think it's frustrating because a lot of people think well you know it's why not why not why can't we do something well get to justify what you did or didn't do to sellers yeah that's right that's right so so this note that i just am closing on today just so happens hey fellow no investor are you looking to learn the basics of note investing so you can get started however you don't want to spend a few hundreds or thousands of dollars and hours online on some training program have you thought about attending a notes conference however you don't want to spend the money or the time away from your family well we have a tremendous beginners video series of 20 different topics with each video being less than 15 minutes this means each video is less fluff and direct to the content visit www.jkpholdings.com beginner dash series to learn more again www.jkpholdings.com slash beginner dash series uh it fits perfectly with our guest today because it's it's uh an investor that i have that's using their ira funds and this is a low priced asset i'm only paying 16.5 for it i don't have the rest of the numbers in front of me but but it's a relatively low purchase price um we're expecting actually a quick turnaround on this their their judgment's already passed we're just waiting for a date for foreclosure so yeah it's i expect it to get paid off or to auction off at uh at auction foreclosure auction so this is probably going to be a pretty quick turnaround in somebody's ira uh the irr on this and it's going to be ridiculous so for those who are not familiar with it right we talked to people last night that funding is a struggle for them finding money in the struggle for them and they don't feel comfortable talking to just anybody um what they don't realize they actually may have some money already yeah most people do yeah most people do they've got something that they didn't even know they had it's it's something that they say i think what four or five percent of america knows about wow that's crazy you know and if you think that way why not make it available to those who don't know about it but just struggle with it so retirement money is something that people are very careful with but they also like have some kind of control some understanding of it because the stock market's just nuts so and it's nice if you get some education if you understand something about uh whether it's notes or anything else but but figure out some kind of investment because you can make a whole lot better than a bond at two percent you can do much much much better yeah so without further ado we have carmen here from uh main trust so carmen i want you before we get too crazy what is ira what is this whole idea of vehicle investing with retired money and is it legal absolutely um so the irs started tax return accounts retirement accounts clear back in the early 70s you know there they originally though the purpose was more geared towards cds and and small things but as it's developed you know we've gotten more experienced with alternative investments and so that's one of the things that mainstar specializes in is allowing those types of alternative investments we've been doing it since 1978 so we have quite a bit of experience with it where you can use your ira proceeds you know if you have 401k that you've rolled over and tend to you know it opens up a whole nother bucket of money that people don't realize that they they can use to you know venture venture and pool together with you know their personal money or a spouse's account um so yeah we we totally do that it's legal there are some restrictions to that you know we can get into the nitty-gritty of that as we go okay so for those who are not familiar with this whole idea um how do you get an ira star where the the strategy of getting ira started so there's a couple ways you can fund your ira um most commonly people are you know at becoming retirement age and they've they've got a 401k that they're looking at doing something with they can transfer over their 401k or if you already have an ira established you can transfer that money or make additional contributions and so you know you can make six thousand dollar contributions unless you're you know making catch-up contributions over that age fifty and so even though it's not a significant amount every year that you can contribute you know that that retirement income that you have from from prior employment you can pull that all together like i said and and it can make a pretty healthy little account that you can use for investments for real estate nodes and things like that so can you transfer say you're you work a regular 9 to 5 you've got a 401k as part of your employment package can you just roll that over into an rra no you can't once you sever employment with that company then that opens that up and you can transfer that into an ira um but as you're still employed there it stays in that 401k okay but if i work somewhere for five or ten years and then i change jobs but i still have my old 401k that one i can transfer over absolutely very interesting and then what's the difference between an ira and a self-directed ira we hear a lot about that so they're all self-directed in reality um we main star you know and any other custodian that you're going to be involved with we don't make investment decisions on your behalf we don't do any type of tax or legal advice so that's where that self-direction is involved you decide what investments you want to purchase mainstar we don't do any due diligence on those investments so that's where that self-direction comes from if you want to take money out of your account you direct us to take money out of the account if you want to contribute it in you're directing us to do that um and that that's really the focus that of that self-direction now you can have different types of accounts as a self-directed account so you can have a traditional ira or a roth ira there's there's a slew of different kinds you know employer plans that are available as well interesting and you know one of the things with ira investing is you're right all ira investing is self-directed either you're doing a mutual fund or you're picking your your situation or you're picking stocks right i i think the mythology out there is that all you can do with your retirement is put into mutual funds in the stock market what else can you invest in and for those who people who are new we know that you probably know this stuff but there's a lot of people who are on this core or listening and on the youtube channel later on um that may not know i can invest in other things in stock market yes absolutely so really um you can invest in nearly anything there are a few restrictions that the irs supplies you cannot invest in life insurance you cannot invest in collectibles or some special metals for example you can't have a wine collection in your ira but really doesn't matter if it's something you can take title to for example real estate or a promissory note where you know you are the the on the node it's drafted in the ira's name partnerships you can hold a partnership um so really anything that you can take ownership where the ira would take ownership to um we have a slew of things you can invest in we it's not necessarily limited we do have some people you know choose to form limited liability companies and then they and that limit liability company will go on and do the investments in the limited liability company you know so there there's a lot of flexibility with it um we obviously have investors that aren't comfortable doing that more advanced type stuff so they still might invest in those cds or mutual funds and bonds and we do all that as well so it really just depends on how savvy you want to be and obviously there's more risk involved with some of that other investing cool so you don't necessarily have a list that you can point somebody to they would have to come with their idea and you'd say yeah that's okay or not okay we have both so on our website mainstar trust.com you can we do have a list of special asset types that we do allow um but you know if anybody has questions on that we have our customer service department is well versed on what types of investments you can do or if you question whether something is an option or um you know how to how to go about doing it you can call our customer service team and they will help educate you on on that like i said again you know kind of always that disclosure we we don't give advice on how to invest or what to invest in but we can help educate you on what the rules are kind of around what the irs allows as well as prohibited transactions involved in that i know a lot of people i mean steve lloyd definitely brags about you know roth iras and super sizing stuff now you can take an ira and duplicate it quick quadruple their returns on it by doing strategy with real estate you know people are you know maybe they get a house under contract for a dollar and next you know they get a thousand dollar check for that broker thing and then all of a sudden their roth ira rate that they bought what a dollar is now a thousand dollars and those kind of things are you able to do those kind of processes and how fast can you you know how long does it take because right now if you're going to buy anything real estate related it takes time to close on the house how long does it take to buy it with your ira well let's let's back up just a sec because you know there there are additional steps with iras it's not um you know it's not going to be the fastest process depending on where you're at in the scenario you know you obviously have to have your account set up you have to have it funded so if you are doing a transfer from another institution another ira custodian or you have a 401k and you're wanting to move money that can take a little while you know you've got both financial institutions processing paperwork and moving money so you always want to kind of have that planned out get your account established make sure it's funded and then for main star and every custodian does this a little bit differently but main star we do have a form we call an asset information worksheet so when you pick an investment let's say a promissory note you you provide that note to us you give us a draft of that note and you fill out this particular form what we do is is we make sure that note has all the terms that we require you know we can see the interest rate we know what the payable uh what the payments are and what the maturity date and those you know standard things um we also need to make sure that whoever is in charge of that or you know if it was a partnership you know the managing members or whatever and we have their contact information we know you know who to go to if we have questions and and also those companies have to you know review our terms of of the thousand information worksheet and make sure they understand as custodian what our responsibilities are because we do have some obligations um so you know they they need to fill that form out send it in and then we we review that asset just to make sure it's feasible for us to hold that again that they will provide us valuations which are required that you know that can be a struggle sometimes depending on the investment things like they have to be able to re-register investments um or you know for rmd purposes there's a lot of variables that go into this so that process can take a little while um main star what what we usually say is 24 to 48 hours to have that asset reviewed on our books and again we are just making sure it's administratively feasible for us to hold that all those requirements that we need to fulfill our obligation to the irs that that asset company is understanding of that so once that's reviewed on our books you know again this promissory note example we would review the note we'll set that up on our system and then really at that point the investor the account holder is just going to fill out our purchase authorization and request funding and again there are some steps that go they're involved with that documentation that we would need and you know then we we usually try and have funding done within 24 to 48 hours as well so we try and turn it around just as quickly as we can but i think it is critical for investors to remember that there are some of these additional steps that need to be taken in advance you know establishing the account funding the account making sure that your custodian can hold that type of investment you know main star we we specialize in the alternative world um but some custodians don't um or they may be less familiar with you know certain types of investments and other and more familiar with real estate in particular so you kind of got to find the right fit for you as an investor so for example if somebody wanted to invest in say a note fund one that has been newly established but has a very experienced known investor behind it what kind of documentation would you need for that person so it yeah in that scenario just to clarify is that note fund is it a partnership a limited liability company or is it we would actually have ownership in the the promissory note in that case it's an llp okay so in those situations we really just need you know whatever formation documents you would have formed so you would submit the asset information worksheet along with either the memorandum operating agreement subscription documents whatever documents you have as that business unit and that's what we would need up front for that initial review process and then really when you go to purchase the investment again our purchase authorization and then whatever subscription documents you might require from the asset side so let's make sure we're clear one thing too you guys won't say a deal is a good deal or not nor would you guys give an opinion if the deal as a disqualified participant would that be accurate um we don't we do not do any due diligence on the asset uh in conversations if we recognize something as being a prohibited transaction yes we will point it out to you and we want to do full disclosure on that up front you know i had a situation actually just yesterday where um an investor wanted to to create a brand new promissory note she says i'm lending it to um my llc and i okay well yeah how's that going to work because this is your llc she would be considered a prohibited person she was wanting to do a franchise and she wanted to use her 401k money and fund a promissory note to her personal business to open this franchise you know so we quickly kind of knit that in the button you know i apologize you know you need to refresh yourself with prohibited transactions but her as the ira owner is a disqualified person so it you know we like i said we always if we recognize something um you tell us at those tidbits we're going to point them out to you and refer you back to the irs code just so you can read it as as we are familiar with it and make sure you know what you can and can't do i got you so you know you guys don't need to do diligence for them right but what do you do is the accounting for the asset you actually the the ira is set up and it's not inside their personal name it's inside entities company right and that ira can't pay you can't pay for any expenses nor work on any part of that asset regarding notes right typically rentals is paintbrush and all that good stuff but with notes you can't self-service because you can't advantage that note is that correct that's correct yeah you can't benefit from it self-service you know you can't hire yourself as the general contractor you you know the irs is focused on you know this is retirement money and it and it's being set away for retirement money so they feel that you know you as benefiting from you know maybe being a self-contractor you are you're wreaking a benefit before that retirement so that that is where they get into that you know you can't work on it you can't have your son or daughter work on it you know you have linear descendants your parents you know so it's really important that people kind of do their homework before they just jump in full force on an ira because there are some really important things to consider as far as what your intentions are who's involved um you know even things like having your son's construction business do it that's still a prohibited person prohibited business because your son owns that business so it is important um because the tax consequences are huge if you do have a prohibited transaction and it would disqualify the ira so it's number thing to think about but you could go into a deal with your son if you're fifty percent in their fifty percent correct yeah yep you can go into you can do joint ventures partnerships um we do it quite quite frequently and it is a way to leverage more money um so maybe a husband wife husband son daughter they can partner like accounts you know you can use your maybe your you and your son's traditional iras and maybe your wife has a roth and then maybe you've got some personal money so especially in the note world you can pull that money together what is most important about that is that the titling is accurate you know we would be looking to make sure you know everybody if are they 25 owners or what and then as interests and payments come back those have to be divvied out proportionately back to the owners so you as the you know if you had it in both your ira and personally you can't take your ira's money and use it you got to pay the ira back same with expenses and expenses really happens more on the real estate side you know if you are taking direct title to property it is critical that any expenses and income flows through the ira so you mentioned there a minute ago about the tax consequences being huge what does that mean like we're not talking about a slap on the wrist what are the consequences i i will have to double check but i believe it's 50 penalty and it disqualifies the ira um from the beginning of the year so that whole amount of the ira would be shown as a distribution to you on a 1099 time so you don't lose the entire ira you just lose that year uh no you would lose the entire ira it just happened that that particular year yeah yeah so i also i learned uh in one of the conferences we went to a couple years ago and i backed up real quick and i didn't realize this for those who are watching i'll give you a little tidbit i had been partnered with personally with another one of my partners on a couple deals and then i took my iras let's keep going and i joined venture with them for my rape with them on a deal come to find out sitting with jeff watson about some stuff and realized that that person because we are 50 personally we are now that person is now a disqualified participant and i couldn't do a joint venture in my ira because of the fact that we are personally connecting 50 50 on a deal so for those who don't know this is well like participant most people think it's up and down there are other features like your white and what's like that um but yeah i was amazed when i found out that i was 50 50 over here i could not be any 10 20 or 50 or anything with my array because i was 50 it was interesting right yeah absolutely i mean not you know like i said i it is really important for people to do their homework and do their own due diligence not only on the investments on but on what type of account they're opening and what the rules and regulations are that the irs has established yeah with that said i know one of the things that we kind of work on a lot is you know the process of buying a note with the ira so once we establish the fact that we want to buy this asset with this note with our asset we contact you go through all the paperwork right and then everything that goes through that asset has to go through your the custodian all payments all the income has to go to the custodian right all the paperwork signed like initial but then you guys have to initially actually sign the purchase sale agreement right yeah that's correct yep uh and and it's important you know i mentioned it earlier that we have to have title to that so even if it's secured by real estate you know that that does have to be titled in the ira's name so the note may be drawn or the partnership may be drawn and if it is secured like i said by that property more in the note situation then main star would be listed on the actual deed or if we were holding direct title to the um in in more of your limited partnership or llp situation you know that partnership is going to hold title and your ira ira would just be listed as a member of that so that is a little bit different so for those buying notes with your ira or using somebody else's ira to buy a notes um tip just from experiences yeah tell the seller that it's coming from an ira yes because if you say okay we're going to close on wednesday uh iras like we're saying it takes an extra couple of days at least and so just just make sure everybody's aware you don't want to take anyone off you don't want to you don't want to lose this deal because you said you were going to close wednesday and then it takes two or three days for the funding to come through so just make sure that the seller's aware usually that's not a problem yeah but just make sure that that's being said out loud do you understand if you're on the process and the seller seller knows you're going through a custodian that you can't control it right who knows carmen may get sick and she's supposed to sign a day and has to get passed on so things happen with that right so um it's it's something that you just have to establish with the seller when you're going through the process and if you can tell them the sooner the better hey listen fyi i'll be fine as my ira so closing may be kind of delayed a day or so hopefully we'll be on time get him up off the date just let them know now carmen i know with notes um all documentation mods your servicing agreement all the assignments have to have on the title of the irs um when the note is the collateral file is that something that you guys typically want to hold on to how do you handle the collateral file for documentation stuff we don't require to be to hold on to it you know we we often have note servicers that are involved and we kind of let them manage a lot of that we like to have obviously a copy of the signed completed note but moving past that we don't get too involved in the all the fine paperwork and everything involved um it's more of than just making sure that payments are being applied back to the ira and that you know those are coming to us ach check you know however we have a variety of ways that everything comes back so like i said i mean really our big thing is making sure we have a copy of the the signed note including any um deed or you know copy of the security and dating um but we don't require to hold it physically or anything like that that's awesome that's good and you know i think some of the stuff that we worried about with iras is the prohibited people and the prohibited transactions um do you guys hold any kind of trainings or webinars or you know additional information to help investors to know hey listen i i i i'm curious because you know what it seems to me every time i talk to somebody who does ira investing they have a new strategy that i've never heard of before and it's so cool like whoa right um you know it went from i didn't know anything about this thing too you can do this with it you know the wholesale paper buy a product for a dollar and get it out i'm like that's crazy but it happens yeah you guys full attack trainings education so we don't currently have any webinars or online training or anything like that at the moment um that's another process as you guys know um we really focus more on these types of situations where we can meet with you guys really the asset sponsors um and go through you know with your with your customers and um what the options are you know as a custodian though we we do have a great customer service team that you are more than welcome to call and kind of discuss different options and again they can help with the educational side of it and it that happens daily we have people you know i heard about something you know how do i do that and so we we take those phone calls daily just kind of help you out and maybe redirect you to some of that educational stuff our website does have quite a bit uh you know of information out there and and we're always adding to and enhancing that so you know if nothing else you know call us send me an email whatever and we'll help out however we can cool great that education part is so important because like you said at the beginning dave so many people don't know about iras in general yeah so just learning about an ira for the first time there's some....