Note Investing: Avoiding Beginner's Mistakes | Real Estate Notes Show

Episode: Note Investing: Avoiding Beginner's Mistakes Dave's Goals and Plans: - Buys non-performing first mortgages nationwide for the past 5 years - Targets the $50,000-$150,000 UPB value range as the sweet spot - Bids at 70% of BPO or 40% of UPB, whichever is lower - Uses a custom ROI calculator to evaluate deals before bidding Nathan's Goals and Plans: - Observes many investors overbidding on loans without proper evaluation - Notices bidders don't factor in additional costs like taxes, liens, and legal fees - Finds roughly 30% of BPO valuations are inaccurate - Emphasizes caring about profitable deals closed rather than number of bids won Key Recommendations: - Ask brokers specific questions: Who is the servicer? Who is the collateral manager? This reveals if they're legitimate - Verify the chain of title in the collateral file matches the ownership chain - Never bid based solely on a percentage of BPO or UPB without doing thorough deal evaluation - Build your own ROI calculator and learn costs through actual deals - For Chapter 13 bankruptcies on second mortgages, verify equity exists to avoid unsecured debt status Topics Discussed: - Identifying and avoiding illegitimate brokers - Optimal loan price range and fixed cost considerations - Overbidding mistakes and lack of proper deal evaluation - Chapter 13 bankruptcy implications for first vs.

second mortgages - Inaccuracy and unreliability of BPO valuations - Importance of knowing actual servicers and collateral managers Guest Insights: - Fixed foreclosure and rehab costs hurt smaller loan values disproportionately, making sub-$50K loans difficult - Borrowers with higher loan amounts can afford better legal defense, making them 'craftier' - Multiple layers of brokers in a tape create dangerous uncertainty about asset availability and actual ownership - Legitimate brokers like Joel Markowitz have direct seller relationships, unlike casual tape flippers - Chapter 13 bankruptcy handling varies significantly by jurisdiction, affecting equity calculations Episode: Note Investing: Avoiding Beginner's Mistakes Guest: David Putz Summary: This episode teaches note investors how to identify illegitimate brokers, select optimal loan price ranges, and navigate bankruptcy complications when purchasing performing and non-performing notes.

Main Topics: Identifying and avoiding broker pitfalls in note investing, Optimal UPB price range for note purchases ($50,000-$150,000), Fixed costs impact on smaller loan values, Chapter 13 bankruptcy considerations for note investors, Equity protection in bankruptcy situations Key Takeaways: Ask brokers about servicers and collateral managers to verify legitimacy before purchasing | Avoid brokers who request Proof of Funds, as this is uncommon in note investing | The $50,000-$150,000 UPB range minimizes risk from fixed foreclosure costs while avoiding sophisticated borrower defenses | Chapter 13 bankruptcy performers are valuable; secondary positions require careful equity analysis | Equity thresholds vary by bankruptcy jurisdiction and significantly impact loan recovery Keywords: non-performing notes, broker detection, UPB valuation, Chapter 13 bankruptcy, collateral management yeah my biggest advice is don't be scared of space but also don't be tuberous taking the space is small everybody knows each other and you know critique your ROI calculators are in a note we only give our own categories away but we'll tell you what the expenses that we do add into it put it all together and bid don't bid higher and stuff just because you've been on percentage bid on stuff you know it's solid and be careful brokers just kind of summarize everything I think I think this is a promo code but either way I'm being right right I drew the promo code chat so yeah definitely manage the 40 see you guys if you're in Jersey the night before I'm gonna kind of pry everyone kind of gather together if you are early stop by and say hello chat for a while and enjoy everybody you can watch the panelists at the conferences they're amazing including Dave absolutely all right man appreciate you jumping on tonight anytime enjoy all right we're on welcome everybody to be to the webinar tonight the call tonight we have a local guy my neighbor to the south here David putz what's going on man do a man there were you doing good so just fill people in on what you do what you're about whoever you know in case people don't know who you are sure I'm in the first-base a little different from where we've been by note since chugging 12 started in a fund and moved on buying it we by knob performing firsts we do buy a few performers here or there but pretty much buy nationwide for five years or so now stay with a smaller market 50,001 $50,000 BPO range by a bunch of different people and just get through the day by evaluating deals based on value and using your networks we have and just building as we go along so this isn't about me is we've been just buying real estate and notes has been the best way of doing it for last five years from our point of view definitely definitely so here's a question that I have right why are you targeting that that fair market at UPB value that your fair market about 50 to 150 thousand what's the what's the sweet spot that you see in there sure anything below that number makes it difficult because if you're off by your percentage of ten percent of value you can get in a real difficult spot foreclosure costs and different expenses are typically fixed you're rehabbing a property of you need paint and carpet if you empty the trash out foreclosure costs all those are pretty much fixed dollar amounts when it comes to if you're buying a 300-mile property those fixed numbers can quickly eat up when you're buying it a little bit above that number this fixed month that fixed that number this fixed month that fixed amount becomes a small percentage up to about 150 once you get above 150 we find the bars a little bit or intelligent and able to play the game and bill hire attorneys and fighter their battles for them so we find that between the values of live 150 but nothing too much over 150 kind of makes it work out for both of us in the long run yeah definitely I understand on the the the borrower's they get a little more crafty I guess with their de foreclosure defense instead of you know what comes down to anyway is just big if the mortgage that's got to be paid absolutely so I guess you know we're trying to talk about tonight avoiding problems avoiding those pitfalls people get started in the business so what's what's a big one that you see I feel like brokers is is a scary one for a lot of people they don't know how to handle it and they don't know how to identify those type of people absolutely I just dealt with this a few times actually this week and it seems like every week we deal with this some real quick tip it's live always uses there's a there isn't a lot of sellers became without there most likely sellers are not hiring people to sell the product so the best way to detect a broker is kind of ask questions that they should know if they're brokering product the two biggest ones I target are a scam a with a service or the loans are if they ask you why or whatever say listen some services are are better than others so if they're not that good of a servicer I'm more attracted the asset if they are unable to tell you who the servicer is I have been asked who the collateral manager is who was managing the collateral file for the the assets those things typically either opt the broker or they're unable to answer it always avoid if they ask you for POF I've never ever ever had a variety left okay except for I think one case actually for you know what if that's the I or some way that kind of a really a real estate firm it's not it's not something that's common in no at all so those are the kind of things I always tell people ask the question who's servicing Alone's who's claro manager if they can if those questions question the broker here's the problem brokering Claro manager the question was that's to be the person that will hold the file record your assignments and they'll go chase down in the issues servers just can do some of that stuff but it's outside third-party vendors la people use Richmond ro we as a different source but the big thing we find out from people are when you deal with a broker you don't know who actually owns the assets which is dangerous I've been stationed in the beginning where I'm trying to chase something down to find out that broker has a seller who's actually brokering who extra burglars where else you don't know that ass is still available you don't know what's going on the asset and you can typically not get to the actual asset manager right I like this thing you see the questions this is great to pop up here you definitely can buy from brokers I'm not saying you shouldn't I'm saying the fear of buying from a broker can be dangerous if there are truly a broker and not actually somebody who can directly link you to them the number of people out there that have who are brokering notes is very few I it's very informal way of doing it most sellers just directly sent it to you the product it just it makes it more difficult how do they know the property is still available are they no details it just makes the chain so when they when people say hey there's no chain here I'm I'm direct to the seller to me that's already a chain so it's it's not like that all brokers are bad but who is a legitimate broker is the key right so like let's just use it as an example so bill I think asked the question let's say bill you're sending the tape out and Dave's gonna broker it for you and now Dave sends me the tape and now I I'm sending it out to my downline so now when I'm getting filled that a question or someone tries to buy that asset I don't know if they've sold it and I don't know what's going on so that that's where it gets to be too far and that's the danger part of dealing with the broker is you don't know how direct they are to the seller obviously so unless they have a relationship and you know who that kind of brokerage so like Joel Markowitz right he's like unknown broker and you know that he's direct to the seller he's not a guy who's taking a fourth tape over and sending it out to you you know so when I worked for the fund we actually said assets that came back to us you know that here's here's that list of assets like wow that looks familiar we got a couple we got a couple here or what are the issues and questions to ask if filing a note when a borrower's in a chapter 13 we're off topic but we'll take it so when chapter 13 it depends if you're dealing with a first or second eye in the second world definitely be concerned with that if there's no equity protection you can get wife in the first world to me it doesn't really matter it was performing or not be k13 performers are really actually highly priced because you're dealing this fiscal autonomy that you can if there's a problem you go to their BK attorney or the trustee and you file because it is stay from the foreclosure whenever BK so BK 13 I love those things they're awesome yeah on the second side I'll talk a little bit towards that the no equity is the big one right the no equity is the big one because if that if they can deem your loan unsecured you're considered an unsecured debt at that point and you get paid very minimal if you get paid at all now you'll always hear the all of the dollar in equity the dollar in equity that is the case right but it's it depends on the bankruptcy district which I'm not going to get too technical on right now but like Florida is not actually sorry New York New Jersey is not like that area right it's not the dollar in equity it's how much equity you have so if you have a dollar in equity in a state like Georgia your whole loan is covered where if you have a dollar in equity and state like Pennsylvania only your dollar is covered so it makes a difference where that dollar in equity situation comes up so bill let's question the danger of you might send money to buy it and actually available right that's huge thing with brokers you want to make sure you're dealing with the asset manager and the best way to figure that out is when you get that collateral file from that seller you want to make sure the chain of where it's in the oni when you pull it on when eight matches the chain it's seeing in the file your collateral manager should be able to detect that if you're using one if not your servicer will if not your reading to clarify yourself and say okay let me make sure that the chain from that person to you makes sense definitely so basically right you could send your funds to the wrong person and you might be paying too much for those loans because they're being brokered so what what do you see in Dave as far as I see it a lot especially a tape I was just looking at tapes people are over bidding way more than they're supposed to way more than they should there's no way they're gonna make money on those bids what do you what do you see and what do you think people should do to stop to calm it down and not get too crazy over these loans I you know it's a great great topic we've taught as a bunch of signs privately what I'm hearing a lot people is bidding is what percent of BPO or UPS you bid and we kind of veer away from that whole theory where we bid 70% and have bid 40 percent while BPO or UPB and the difference is typically it exactly and alone you're bidding of UPB interest under water keep bidding a BPO whatever numbers lower when people are bidding high mats and no dollars it's typically because they didn't do any kind of evaluations or the ROI calculator determine if the ass that makes sense it is told you can buy notes at 55 cents or 50 cents and they just go out and pay for it if the value of the property matches where you're buying a 3,000 mile property and you're buying it 60 cents you can give yourself in a bad situation quickly you didn't count the other costs so there are our calculator is a must but it's something you must build yourself I always tell people getting a deal you know getting a deal with somebody watch the costs build your calculator from there and ask a lot of questions so - maybe you are buying things too high-priced showers are getting attracted to so many people getting in space and being told just do it just do it just do it and they're bidding it and we're losing on deals we're saying there's no way you didn't look at the taxes on it you look at the sewer lien iris liens all that kind of stuff and they didn't factor it in because they didn't they weren't trained in it maybe they jumped in I don't know I feel like a lot of it is just the excitement of trying to win yes like win the bid but I don't really care how many bids I mean they care about how many that that I actually do get I make money afterwards that's more important to me yeah I I know Kenny asked a question jargon and definitely explained terms and I apologize with just being in the space for so long Peter native language yeah you know what iPod is you know UPB we talked about is unpaid principal balance and there's also a legal balance UPB typically is what the balance alone is where legal balance will include any kind of past fees we use upfront taxes paid attorney fees all kinds of in things where BPO is obviously a broker a broker's price opinion which I'm always fearful of I'm sure one of the guys in the call today can we laugh all the time he's actually a BPO agent we find about 30% of BPO is being wrong and if you talk to BPO agent they'll tell you they therapy 50 bucks they drove by on their way to their friend's house take three pictures plugged into their AVM just automate value marketing system and a plug on a number and typically break three lines on it they make their 60 bucks and gal so I don't totally count on that but so if you're paying a percentage of that number you can be in big trouble with the BPO is a tough one especially in the first world yep not as big a deal in the second world but it's what everybody harps on they always you know what's the value what's the value it's not that easy right you know you got you got to make a decision short period of time so you try to make your decision on other factors as well not just the BPO in case that's not most accurate number so that's why due diligence is important huge huge right Gary's of how easy due diligence differ when considering a single little versus an entire tape typically a great question when you're buying a single loan you're really looking at that individual loan what you can buy for what your return is when you're buying a pool level you can kind of margin eyes that number where you're buying it may be a little higher here and you're dropping values down on the other side where it bakes maybe 65 cents we normally play 60 when you're buying another asset that may be a little lower level asset and you're buying it for we've bought acid for $1 just because it you know to buy the whole pool so we may pay up for a little bit and pay down other ones so we're typically buying basing UPB at that point and putting a bit in that way but in the behind the scenes we're paying based on BPO and making sure that our returns are a percentage the return what we're looking for makes sense and whatever the percentage of UPB or BPO is just a result all that calculation right in a pool I mean you're gonna change your buying criteria slightly because you're taking on everything so you're just gonna do pluses and minuses with like what they've saying so guess what if there's a note that I think I'm gonna lose money on maybe I'll put a higher upto price on effort to lower my tax bases right at the end of the year and then on the loan I think is a homerun I might put a lower price for a higher price for whatever it like whatever you need to do to adjust it whereas you're buying a single note or two or three notes you want all those to be homeruns you don't want to miss on any of them so you're gonna be a lot stricter on your due diligence yeah all right um well I for us I guess Dave you learned from one of the bigger guys in the business yeah I learned from Fuquan which everybody knows from national milk group talk about how important that is to learning from other people learning from other people in the industry coming to these meetups and conferences and things like that absolutely I think it's key we all kind of had a different value of what we do and how we do it some people are great at certain things and hope you are great at other things every I guess educator mentor in a space is different their own way I think it's key to talk to everyone get a tidbit of everything from everyone we don't do it the same way but at the same time we're not all wrong the way I structure my setup is different from the way you do it different from other first position people different from other teachers I may not pull BPOs and everything because I don't trust them I'm trusting my values and my local agent and I taught the three agents instead of pulling one BPO I think it's key to talk to all the educators listen to videos watch them join these webinars and go to conferences and just talk to other investors and say hey what do you do how do you do it there's no right wrong way to do this it's the Wild West and we make that joke all the time I mean a good thing to do is write communicate cold people reach out to people get a network of you know to three people yeah that you could talk about the business with it different different experiences levels so or you can go to the Facebook group like days group is very active and when people post a question on there there's a lot of comments so you can get a little bit of feedback if maybe you don't know someone personally I learned a lot from reaching out to my attorneys I've told you guys probably a hundred times on these webinars is I used to have a foreclosure in California so every time I pick up the phone when I talk to that foreclosure trustee I would ask him three or four questions about notes right and I was that's when I was just getting started every time I called I two or three questions before we hung up and so by doing that I was able to pick up and speed up my learning curve and sometimes that's what you guys got to do yeah yeah I tourneys are amazing you find a few of them again the phone show and you feel like you should build them because they're so willing to share information there's some attorneys out there that won't share anything talking it servicers talking to a turn he's talking to all kinds of people as we both know our or the network that we have is amazing um people are sharing everything everywhere we're willing to talk we just like talking we like sharing information and we maybe shouldn't we share too much sometimes because the funny part is people don't take action now so if I gives me away sometimes 5050 they're not gonna use it which is kind of weird it is what it is I think with this space there's so much out there that's good or bad either way that people just overwhelm the times so now just keep it simple fine alone narrow down and then bounced off of us I'm not gonna go steal it alone because I don't got the time or energy and I respect you to learn cuz you're not gonna come back to me and me and this space is small you get bad mounts real quickly so I'll come back when I go this one look at this second what do you think and it happens it works so right it's just amazing so I guess with that right what are you seeing as the hurdle that people that people get stuck on when it's trying to buy their first note you think it's understanding the concept of how do you manage something without having to drive it drive to it every day what do you think it's the whole you know they don't they don't understand how to build out there at their team to get to work for their mark the service or like the lawyer like the realtor and everything else like that I think the combination a lot there's certain people out there that tell you how terrible dangerous world is how scary it is how all that stuff there's people there that scare people it is a legal business it's we're dealing paper it's all we're dealing with buying a house outside your area is hard but I think the biggest thing is is that the hurdle is people just afraid of what they don't know they're afraid of where to go or who to trust what what we feel is good at what if feeling is bad I my first buy I did everything wrong and I still made money I think now with so many people in the space it's best to just break through like you're asking where are you stuck let just find your it is talk to people ask questions I think people get stuck in certain spots or because they just don't have the experience there are certain places I get stuck I call my friends in space and say hey how do you know this right and you know we did what FBI I mean we haven't done @fp in a while so I ask questions been you know force-placed insurance we have a problem just ask questions don't get scared as much as it may look bad or whatever just bounce a question off somebody or team up with an ask questions that way all right so you got a couple ways to get in right let's say you're a person who's who was running who's got a job right you do what you got to do nine to five one nine to eight whatever your hours are you got a personal life and you don't have the time to manage and non-performing know then there's always the performing side right and just like people get started in the rental in a rental business they start buying cash flowing properties they get a little bit more courage and then they start going to some mid rehabs and they go to the full guts you could go work that same kind of cycle with notes because that that that evan you is there and then what is compared to what it used to be they would say get to in 2012 yeah we I got into it work at the front 10 I saw buying personally John 12 but as you said in 2012 to have lemon we're buying an over forty percent of value it was just didn't you didn't buy it over forty percent a day in a sense now it's much higher Seattle were careful there was no electronic copies oh right you send the wire you hope the guy you had what do you lose talking yeah it's a different world so the entry is in a lot of ways it got simpler yeah and you know you could see Dave's been around for years right he hasn't disappeared so you know that obviously he's doing good business so if there's something that you know you're gonna buy a performer or buy a non performer so you know that that's a reliable person to work with and it wiII be mailed back and forth another way again to space is buying parcel so if you don't have at Amana money you want to buy performer but you don't have enough money to buy a good one quote-unquote at the high price one I would go ahead and look to buy a partial at ten grand that kind stuff does make more for your money in the mean time so you figure out that note that you do want to buy yep you talk to your tourneys hey get a feel for it and while making twelve or setting your money for five years whatever it is dangle raise more money get through the cycle once and you feel more comfortable about it I'm for the pricing criteria III see I question yeah please don't focus on what you're buying it at I mean back then we're buying for less than forty percent of value I mean we're talking cheep-cheep-cheep I'm thirty to thirty four buses five six years ago don't focus on percent of BPO I said earlier buying a percent of BPO or you PB and sticking that number can be dangerous buy based on what your attorney or ROI calculator will be because that's where you need to go I see question about being a beginner you can deathly get education courses there's a ton out there you know I don't offer any training courses because there's so many out there I won't spill them all out there you can definitely find them out there but I I suggest more teaming up because people are get into education and you do more education and do more education and they never get out there and then they marketed everyone for a JV partner to get into a deal when they don't know what they're doing so the recommendations I'm not gonna give any recommendations because I don't want to say a name but I shouldn't say or vice versa right so I'll just tell you about there's free there's free resources out there all right yeah one of them is right here I'm Janice think-tank so like this interview with Dave will be up in two days on the website for free for everybody all you got to do is login then you got guys like Scott you got guys like Dave um they've danced at Oscar starting to do some stuff now ADCP it's like yeah Eddie speed Dave and where there's a lot of stuff that's out there that you don't have to spend a ton of money or nothing at all and then you have kind of like reading material like when I go through with my Facebook I go through like the East Coast group as like my newsfeed Oh like what's going on some new articles people posted there and your questions and things like that so there's recognized out there is go to just give you a plug go to your go to your conferences and just talk to all the educator because they're all selling talk to them get a feel for your like they're all personable and just talk to people you may find an investor that's been doing it for years that says sure I'll teacher and they bring you on some demand of teaching people as he gets into by with you and have more money we're capital by bigger and better you know projects mm-hmm I've always learn more by doing so yeah I feel like it when your money is on the line you want to figure something out so you don't lose what you invested and so from that you grow because you bring through some kind of struggle you are forced to either grow or you or you kind of let or that deal fell apart and then if that deal falls apart it doesn't mean that all the deals are going to be that way it just means that maybe that deal wasn't meant to be you know the numbers weren't there yeah so it didn't work out a hundred percent I think what you do is you start creating systems I think you start creating a checklist one things that one thought about tonight was collateral files you wouldn't believe once you get Claro file and this space is definitely different is that once you make an indicative offer which basically means I'm priceless to begin with before I dive into the the asset fully seen collateral files pulling BP O's pulling the Oney which is like a mini title report is making sure servicing notes are in there would you find out what's going on with the borrower and the current servicer what the service was saying to the borrower are they interacting if they are interacting what kind of situations they got into and whatnot you also get pulled property inspections where if the property was vacant making sure it was winterized with north east if it was winterize more likely there's pictures of the property inside I'm good better and different you'd get an idea where it looks like and making sure there's a federal policy if you ever bought a house if you're new year for a boathouse you have to have a federal policy at a mortgage making sure that that was clean the owner just pulls from that point from when the house is purchased to now but it just tells you a lot like bankruptcy files it just tells you a lot information you make an offer you say okay now I found out more information about the servicing notes or property inspections or whatever you make a better decision with that information and bounced all people again its space is small just start talking to people you can kind of tell who's been around for a while he has a few people about the person more than five people know about the person they've been around for long enough all right so we're talking about the system's a little bit what's your system when you buy right you you speak out and speak to a seller you give them your expectations of what you're looking to do I'll get to spend ten thousand fifty thousand a hundred thousand whatever it is they send you over tape what's the first thing that you doing to break it down for someone who's trying to get started so you know the first thing you do is I mean make it simple I mean everyone knows what Zillow is who knows the last time it is obviously we don't count on us to Mozilla with a website that ice can't beat for a map view of all the properties in the area are selling for well the old Harper's accurate no but it's the best map to look at what's sold and I easily narrow down to either 12 or 24 months see what the market is if the house looks in a condo Plex it's very easy to prove the value the property if the properties in an area where that you know every house is a 3-bedroom 2bath 1600 square foot house in a certain area and they're all priced at you know in Ohio for 55 to 58 thousand you can I get a good number on it that you're gonna sites to find it taxes we're gonna sites we used as Nitra online to kind of dig into you want you can look for hold your dockets sometimes in some counties but you also get pulled things like you can get deep and look at permits and some of that you want it basically good idea is the house and a good situation and then we use Google Maps to kind of Google walk we call it and walk the street and see what the property looks like big maps if the big maps usually a Lou Newark map and look at them look at the house looks like make sure you walk down the street and walk back up we've seen a few properties and Google Maps where we turn the block and the property was absolutely gone from one view it was there and kind of find out that in a lot of two years the view changed on that street and the property was demolished right walk it all the stuff and then reach out the agents you know you all different sites out there you want to get a feel what it looks like out there not only just from the northeast actually people in like Alabama they're really really sweet and they'll do all this stuff for free just with the promise that getting the REO at the end it's amazing right so I would definitely get into value kind of plug in see what the value is look for house is the same bedroom same bathroom same square footage and whatnot this is after getting a tape from a legitimate seller that you know one of the key ways to see it with the seller you go to the county site look at the recordings you'll see having a mortgage ASM and you see who the last recording was typically it will show that seller if it doesn't you can ask seller or you guys want a boss who we can tell you that the diligent so or not all right most the time we could tell you there isn't a lot of sellers out there so if you're trying to find a brand new source it's very difficult to do that mm-hmm and so yes Dave days breaking it down for you you want to break it that you want to try to make it simple so you could so you could knock this thing out right that's when a seller sends you something and especially if it's going to be small level like you know it's called 10 loans unless they're expecting you to knock that out within two of the three days of your due diligence right or at least give them an indicative bid during that time yep you know you don't you don't want to be and this is important for this is an important mistake or that happens right for new people is they request all this information they request all these tapes but then they become known as the person that does not close so then those tapes stop coming the emails stop getting answered and that kind of stuff so you want it you want to be an action taker at a certain point and so if you have to break that you do diligence break it down into four steps right yep what's going on with the lien security of the property are there other liens going on there if there is the lien in the correct order so you go to Netra online and check that out you can find out what's going on with the taxes you can find out what's going on with the sewer all that stuff for this you know seconds were told what's going on the senior lien that's another thing we got to check on you check bankruptcy you check property values you check some info on the borrower so you break it down into four or five steps and you should be able to knock it out and if you just go with that and there's gonna be certain steps that's going to knock out that loan for you you know you pull it up and they got fifty thousand in taxes that they're behind on a seventy-five thousand dollar house maybe that you stop right there there's no need to find out what's going on with the borrower there's no need to check anything else at that point you know so this is the kind of stuff that that we've done is we know if we're buying in a smaller level there's going to be things that are right off the bat they don't pass the test and so we don't look any further we don't waste any more time on that typically you you know hate the sterilise on these kind of things but the street has cars on blocks bars in the window those kind of things are you going trillion look at crime you know crime history on the property you know I'm just crimes with a crime figures a website crimes I have in my book marks Crime Stoppers with it where you can see what happened yesterday in the local town where you can see up you know someone shot someone guess you have four o'clock you want a house in a good neighborhood because ideas you want to be sure you can sell the property if you take it back oh that's the fear if this thing is a two-bedroom in an area we're all three bedrooms it's gonna be a harder sell even you can prove value selling it two bedrooms not easy in certain areas age of the house making sure if it's 1900 hours and has stuff added to it code violations could be all over the place Oh funny how big things um is take a look at states with foreclosure timeframes you know what states you need debt license but also what our foreclosure states timeframes are you looking at like a Texas foreclosure or you dealing with a Jersey one that's occupied New Jersey for all those you know you can foreclose in six months if it's vacant for three years but most property 12 18 months were a while you're a year those are kinda things you won't worry about too because you want to focus on Tennessee's the Texas is with that if you can buy them in a reasonable price so there's it's a lot of little things that did seem easy to us because we do it every day but just start your system and saying okay why my folks on this create an area where you get you contact me if family members in you know Mississippi or somewhere that you just hey listen I want to buy more there because I resources I can have them dry by I'll use we look and just look at the property look in the windows Facebook the borrower's name I mean you can find some crazy stuff out there I've seen you'll you know 19 old kid rapping walking through his house I know the house is occupied and they condition the property go robbing through the house like okay this is great in taro pictures you can see I just got a job or my husband the hospital you can find little things out where it's like wow that's got this person just got a job and they're bragging on Facebook this bar could perform tomorrow possibly know those kind of things but they're the your first thing is just finding a value flying out of the property you want again to look at Google Maps see the property in the first base that's all banners is the how the house looks were asset based functionality we're seconds is more the borrower functionality we don't pull we don't pull credit reports like you guys do we've totally should but it's something we it's a secondary thing for us they can house honestly for me it's a secondary thing also I use it it's just because I need to get the senior lien info so I pull a credit I barely use a credit I look at it as I know enough about the bar were based off if they're current on the first and and then that's and their bankruptcy record and I know enough about the borrower from that point and you can and you can learn a lot like I've said before if you go to natural online upstate put in the chat you can see like they've been foreclosed on on the first and they didn't do a modification till I got to the sale date when I'm that let's say I'm the second mortgage holder now I know exactly my strategy I need to get to the sale be because then that's when they're gonna pay this they already showed it in their cat you know that's a characteristic that they had that's what exactly what they're going to do it's the playbook in bankruptcy file you can also see cuz typically they'll put the value of the property in the bankruptcy file you can actually pull what the house value is based on what they're saying because a lot of good information what their jobs are there how many leases they got going on all the stuff that happening but you know I use Facebook also to find out their relatives their daughters or sons just do a lot of stuff the first thing to do is just find value find out the value see a picture of it at for agent to do a drive-by on the time sites we use to find an information but with systems we are you know you'll find your ROI calculating through you find your agents and then go from there to figure out what the value the property is what you're willing to pay for it add up all your costs that's a big thing ROI calculators cost one of the things for smaller investors is make sure that and I'll definitely touch banks in a second when you run your re calculator please make sure you're adding in the foreclosure time period taxes not just what's currently owed because most people add in just what's currently owed and it's like New Jersey if you're buying an asset today you have a year foreclosure you're looking at possibly five ten thousand dollars additional taxes on top of what's owed now so the common event banks I know a lot of people been talk about dialing for dollars for banks it's like darling for you know properties that wholesalers do um I know many people who tried it it's very rare do knocked at home run and get all the bank to lend deals they're just not used to dealing with it if they want to sell you can get smaller banks to do it it's just a lot of work to do to find that golden egg it you're trying to find a source that no one else knows and other people have more time effort in network connections to typically find that golden egg before you do and if it isn't it's probably not they're not saying it isn't um you know I know copula just knocked home a bunch of Santonio properties by doing it by just so many people were suggested to do that I taught to perform about it two percent of people get on the phone with someone who has asset list and I most people who get a nice list or assets they're like you know abandon factories and you know this pecan building Church six churches and there's AG want properties well we have all this if you finally got a bank you find our connection and see acids you don't want I feel like you'll have more luck if you just follow the assignment chain yep and maybe let's just use granite as an example right granite sell on a tape what did they buy it from yeah B they bought from another fund you know like I used to do that I used to make those calls that's the kind of calls I would make and just follow the ass just follow the chain and maybe you can pick up maybe that fun border from a different fund and IH now you discovered a new source that's that's the kind of calls that I've made in the past the bank calls I used to I mean I've tried that years ago it just wasn't it just wasn't something that worked for me I found it better to network with different people in the industry and then all of a sudden look I get a phone call look I need you to partner in on this deal with us we're going into by with company X or fun 2x and that's that's the kind of stuff that that I've had success with is just being active buying whatever is available that fits your criteria and then talking with people so that if something big comes along they think of you yep because you come together with the capital your special effective diligence or you know whatever that skillset you might be that helps them pull down on the trade I also find a lot of people to get these asset lists Nick y one else's pick through it you'd be surprised how many people get these lists and don't buy the fun I came from I mean I've been told that they get less than 15 peeled bidding on assets I mean there's been services who sent out tapes and they said no one's been on assets I mean don't try reinventing the wheel there's so many people out there that have lists just go through the list because it's not allowed peel bidding on them you're they're stuck on trying to find a special asset you know deal with it from a bank and they're spending less time on the asset list people are bidding what you do doing so you know you do you definitely walk through things with people to either you know you connect with and buy from tapes are available I just amazing that people are are just not taking tapes and you're missing an asset I've seen something on taped that bypassed three times and I bypassed and then I realized holy cow I just completely misses one for whatever reason and I bid on it surprised anyone else did kind of and we hit a homerun on it it's just tough because people are trying to find that edge and sometimes just buying what you can get ahold of sometimes people are avoiding certain areas because they had a bad experience for a long time I avoid Hamilton County Ohio because it took five months post foreclosure to get addy transferred well guess what I didn't buy a camera Hamilton Ohio for four years because I was didn't want to foreclosure problem those high hats so we just all right yeah definitely so Michelle actually reached out here in the chat she told mark that she's willing to JV with him so welcome to his firstly also look at that I mean a marriage happens today magic comma weird yeah you can definitely Jamie Leigh people I know Michelle you know bunch time we've interacted it there's amazing spaces pretty much anyone in space will JV with you and walk you through come in you know just reach out we've done a ton of Jamie's with people the only thing I tell people when I JV with people is I won't buy an ass is worth less than thirty one less than fifty because of the risk levels I don't buy a $20,000 asset I don't buy these low-level CFDs just because you can hold on you can get real big myths so IV are those away from those things we gave you people you have to have some money um you know I've done Moses up we've bought three today with JV partners who want to get into it but you know they're spending forty fifty thousand dollars on assets just because it's less riskier asset buying it there when the values at eighty eighty-five would it possible you know another thing is people miss out on when you do an ROI calculator figure that they yield on it when you're buying it because if it does perform you wanna make sure the yield works out there's simple yield and there's we post in the East Coast group today the time value ield I have an Excel spreadsheet that I kind of share whatever one making sure the time value yield makes sense to you don't want to buy someone a JV partner where the yield is a nine percent but you didn't look at that because it'll look a great foreclosure situation if you need go that route in the first base so I can't ask question you try a cure non-performing absolutely most these loans have been doing delinquent for at least a year so the reorders are great the return is typically good so you're always trying to reach out to a borrower using your servicer a third party vendor whoever you can reach out yourself can be dangerous but you can reach out yourself you are always trying to make that happen it's a win-win for everybody and typically a passive loan you could sell off partially or fully in a great manner but yeah when I already talked to my JV partners the first route is performing and making a make sense if it doesn't make sense you just move on mm-hmm Donald don't be married to this you know because you want to win so bad it's something that you mentioned a bunch is the indicative bit right thinking a bit is important because it's not only you know you're kind of setting the expectation of what you're you know these are the ones you're gonna hone in on and focus on but you're also testing the seller to see how ridiculous their pricing might be or how fair their pricing might be and so you put in they could have bid and they come in and they counter at twenty thousand thirty thousand dollars more than you and fit in all right well there's a couple knowns you long as you don't have to look at because you're not going to bid that high it means how many sellers say well we're not gonna give you a pricing on our tape and I see fine I put a bid and they give you pricing afterwards well then you know what sometimes I just put a bar out there to see what their bid price is okay it's like they won't give you a number but they'll give you a count of you right amazing people just just put an offer out there that makes sense and I'm back to it there isn't a magic number one thing we did find that's a little kind of seekers you know finance it's been sitting around for a while these lenders who are selling assets may have 20 assets itself but they might have may have 400 and if they have a loan they keep trying to put out they they may drop the price because their basis is low on it or they've had over a while um you just been sitting on for a while truck tracking deals tracking offers he'd be seeing probably three four or five times throw a lowball out there they're trying to get rid of it all right we've bought assets at you know thirty cents a dollar because we bought property in New Jersey I mean ridiculous it was on four tapes but I knew the value of it you know once I got into it I'll trends bad but we dive into it it was on one of three streets and Trenton worth over 150 grand where most of trends worth like 40 well this has died of 40 grand on a on paper I bought it for 28 it instantly I sold over 85 within three months so right so I've got a question here no equity position no on a second borrowing default on the first one you're the option so option number one is is let's see if they're gonna file bankruptcy right and then option number two is are they gonna do a short sale that's kind of the options at that point you don't you know you don't want to dive into and put any more money into it towards foreclosure or anything like that because until they get that first straightened out there's you know there's nothing there's no money to put towards it you know it's just wasted money at that point keep an eye on that on HOA liens in certain states - we've had situations where we got a one situation where the h of lien HOA lien filed foreclosure three years prior and while we bought and transitioned it went to foreclosure I got the bar to perform she promised to pay the HOA a lien within three months she she the HOA lien facing foreclosure and I got notice of the auction I laughed because I was in first position to find out that my lien was actually in default because the person who own the lien before I did never answered the fault letter so we're actually the fault of the whole thing so we had to sneak back into second position to just have access to this foreclosure auction so check it here all little things you know we all have different stories we've been into but that one was a unique one where I would never have checked the HOA you know let them for clothes they're in third position well they weren't because my lien whoever owned it before never answered the default letter what does it happen the seller get when they're trying to sell they're like look we're not the deal with this let's just get this thing off for books and and we'll worry about it afterwards but I you know luckily for Davey was able to recover that's why due diligence is so important and now he's gonna factor that in to go and he stuff going forward this one I would be HOA I mean just double check this stuff yeah and your checklist it grows as you keep doing it you know you know interacting people hearing stories oh it is you know for note investors around you hey give me some bad stories give me some what happens from drug dealers selling drugs in the house to you know you can't evict somebody because they have you know tenant laws because they moved in for a day to everything you know another thing we've done more and more now is in property inspections on vacant homes if that property is vacate make sure you do proper inspections because if you have a problem the the foreclosure your FBI your force-placed insurance he's know when the incident happened if you can't move it they won't pay the claim out I know those kind of things are the way about again that's deeper stuff but for newbies just take your file look at the loan get values take a look at the picture of the property get a drive-by make sure it's not a piece of land that's not down now get value look at taxes go on you know the tax side the county site you can look at foreclosures on the county side as well just county records or put the state city and state in and look up Supreme Court and you can see the foreclosure data reach out to attorney and say hey what's the status situation and they easily could tell you what's happening with the loan what's going on and let them describe to you and then you can actually take the collateral file and send to an attorney and say hey can you look through this and make sure it's okay and if there's any issues I mean obviously they'll charge you for it but an attorney will let you know if it's for closable or not or with any problems um and those kind of things because there's some times where the sign it missing or lawns missing or you know the notes not sign or something crazy you know what make sure the papers good we're in the paper business here so I've done that before and complicated foreclosure that maybe inheriting yep before I bought the loan I run it by the attorney because I rather pay the attorney couple hundred dollars to review it but then I pay a few thousand dollars or more to buy this to buy this loan that maybe I can't do anything with so it's definitely a good idea yeah I see the very employment for performing the notes it's definitely you could do that I mean you could pull you usually pull that in credit or you can look at LinkedIn you can look at for you know Facebook hire you know private eye sometimes you can find that information out you know but I would say a person can be come in and played tomorrow you know it performing outs are risky they have a high chance to fault as well so you know things can happen but it works out bill I see the question about you know hiring an attorney servicer I use Richmond Road for a long time you could definitely use them attorneys are really good Avenue there are a lot more money where you can like Richmond Monroe you can do a pre file which means before the file comes to you they'll review it in the soft we call it electronic version there's reviewed electronic for think thirty five hours I know review and check seed all assignments are there everything's there and in when it comes in whatnot we as a different company now but there I don't believe they're bringing more customers in but you can definitely teach other training so listen key review is it electronic version and some attorneys will and let you know what's going on you can definitely have servicers last week webinar we had last week we had you know Shawn TEI from Madison jewel review collateral files let you know if she sees anything wrong it's a legal piece of paper that we don't know a lot about when you're first getting into space you know if there's a note that's blank what do you do with that scary you come in fire actually the good thing you know to anyone oh yeah you can definitely have people these collateral files you know to review check out just making sure they can get to the attorney if need be and get recorded we stopped doing a lot of stuff ourselves a lot of recordings because the system of doing it and make sure you spend time it's worth it to you on stuff you can outsource just outsource it they're better at it they're less time-consuming at it you do this long enough just don't don't try doing everything yourself use your systems and you don't have systems ask the best way do it yeah just build it out step by step so the first system that you should be working on if you haven't been able to get into your first purchase yet which is you're buying right what do you know what are you doing to break that down so that you can you can execute on your first purchase and then from there you know if you if it's overwhelming to work out the non performer you could put it with a servicer like Madison take you can make the calls or they can make the calls so they're giving you that option or after that and you can just monitor the situation see how well did you do on your purchase that maybe your you know you're able to see the end result worked out through a servicer yeah it'll up you'll ask questions like what service rate I'd go to FCI Madison land home you know SN you know it all depends on what you need I'm sure shanties on the call tonight she is very easy to work with my first dealings I throw to Madison myself because I didn't understand the servicing end of it I understood the diligence part of it dealing with you know borrowers what you can and can't say you have to follow this debt collection laws of how you can call borrower Madison kind of walks you through it or the other ones kind of let you do either don't let you touch it all or let you touch it very carefully with them on the phone you know so I think that people you know just get started but get started with people you can lean on bounce the deal off somebody um and I just I see so many emails come through ask for JV partners just be careful with that that's another thing I think the people don't get onto it because if you do a deal like that in the that you find a grand-slam guy with $500,000 you think you're diving in a great situation and you screw up the deal the first time you completely lost a funding partner better off teaming up with somebody you know and say listen I'll split the Commission to deal with it I'll get this guy in let me just walk through it or whatever and work with some of you already know to make that deal happen but to me B or J be with me J view me and they have an idea or they done one that worked out great and they haven't got the pitfalls yet you can lose a lot of money doing that and you can piss lobule off you want me to keep that you got that million-dollar guy you want to keep him around for a while you don't want to screw in the first deal like just because you didn't know what you're doing it's not a small deal you know people go to college they paid $20,000 a year ago to college whatever it is and they walk out with nothing at that year spend 10 $15 buy a small second buy small first whatever and if it goes bad you're okay you know mm-hmm and I agree with you I mean sometimes you're you're not ready for that partner either so understand where you're at and it's it's not that you know because this person raised millions of dollars now that means you need to raise millions of dollars if that's not like this that's not the way that you're built then don't do that do what you do well yeah stay with that so if that's working by yourself and find one one every six months and you know and building it up slowly then that's what you do if you can handle a situation where you bring on the extra capital to grow a little bit differently because not always faster it might be it might be sideways for a little while because you're taking on more work than you can handle you you didn't account for everything at first so that's why it's important to work through your first couple of deals you figure what your skill set is maybe your set is your due diligence and so you partnered with a funding partner and then you put it with the servicer or maybe your skill set is raising the capital and you outsource a different part of the business so just figure out what you do well and then fit your way in there because you don't have to do everything well it's plenty of people to help you along the way yeah yeah I think that's that where people lose it at they try jumping in funds deals get in the situation they jump in but it is jumping wrong just find the deal you like pass it through a few people and maybe you find dealing you bring my orange ELISA Meyer I wanna do this deal can you just JB and kind of help me out I'll give you a portion of it I just want to do it do a small deal you just can get yourself in a lot of trouble and if you bring a JV partner in and you take their money and you they do nothing you can get in a lot of trouble doing that because if they do nothing at all they're not really a joint venture partner just be careful with that you know you want team up with somebody you really want to do is team up with somebody that you know that's in a space that's starting to and then both you guys join with someone in experience get an idea what happens and then go on your own and do your own thing raising funds is it sound easy as easy as it is right just raise money it's not that simple there's so many laws and rules which apply to it and so if you're if you're ready for that then I go for it you know I'm sure you did you do diligence and talk to the attorneys and all that but it's it's not as as simple as picking up the phone yeah just make sure you get a deal that you notice and the seller talk to them sellers are not to be pushy if they are walk get in a situation where you talk to your servicers talk to you tourney's they understand you know I can't stress enough talk to the agent tell him to go bug or he or she go buy that property ask about the area call local property manager company and say hey what do you know about this property you never know where you find out Google the address you mean fund the house and fire damage last year so right so Dave aren't you I'm gonna just go through this one slide whenever it loads up all right all right but the final thought for the night so up next meetup is January 9th so a couple weeks off your holiday break you know take a little bit of time we'll get back at a second week in January the Expo is coming up it's in February you definitely want to get on that especially all these people people on the call people love attending webinars the past few weeks looking to get into your first deal you can meet Dave in person along with like you know 200 plus other people it'll be a great time always the number one question I get into the webinar is this recording available it will be available and it's going to post it on Thursday you'll all get an email about it as well so I look forward to you know hopefully you guys are join the event Dave you won't leave everyone off with something yeah look forward to seeing you guys in January if I don't see you guys feel free I'll put my email address in that niche as well amount becomes a small percentage up to about 150 once you get above 150 we find the bars a little bit or intelligent and able to play the game and bill hire attorneys and fighter their battles for them so we find that between the values of live 150 but nothing too much over 150 kind of makes it work out for both of us in the long run yeah definitely I understand on the the the borrower's they get a little more crafty I guess with their de foreclosure defense instead of you know what comes down to anyway is just big if the mortgage that's got to be paid absolutely so I guess you know we're trying to talk about tonight avoiding problems avoiding those pitfalls people get started in the business so what's what's a big one that you see I feel like brokers is is a scary one for a lot of people they don't know how to handle it and they don't know how to identify those type of people absolutely I just dealt with this a few times actually this week and it seems like every week we deal with this some real quick tip it's live always uses there's a there isn't a lot of sellers became without there most likely sellers are not hiring people to sell the product so the best way to detect a broker is kind of ask questions that they should know if they're brokering product the two biggest ones I target are a scam a with a service or the loans are if they ask you why or whatever say listen some services are are better than others so if they're not that good of a servicer I'm more attracted the asset if they are unable to tell you who the servicer is I have been asked who the collateral manager is who was managing the collateral file for the the assets those things typically either opt the broker or they're unable to answer it always avoid if they ask you for POF I've never ever ever had a variety left okay except for I think one case actually for you know what if that's the I or some way that kind of a really a real estate firm it's not it's not something that's common in no at all so those are the kind of things I always tell people ask the question who's servicing Alone's who's claro manager if they can if those questions question the broker here's the problem brokering Claro manager the question was that's to be the person that will hold the file record your assignments and they'll go chase down in the issues servers just can do some of that stuff but it's outside third-party vendors la people use Richmond ro we as a different source but the big thing we find out from people are when you deal with a broker you don't know who actually owns the assets which is dangerous I've been stationed in the beginning where I'm trying to chase something down to find out that broker has a seller who's actually brokering who extra burglars where else you don't know that ass is still available you don't know what's going on the asset and you can typically not get to the actual asset manager right I like this thing you see the questions this is great to pop up here you definitely can buy from brokers I'm not saying you shouldn't I'm saying the fear of buying from a broker can be dangerous if there are truly a broker and not actually somebody who can directly link you to them the number of people out there that have who are brokering notes is very few I it's very informal way of doing it most sellers just directly sent it to you the product it just it makes it more difficult how do they know the property is still available are they no details it just makes the chain so when they when people say hey there's no chain here I'm I'm direct to the seller to me that's already a chain so it's it's not like that all brokers are bad but who is a legitimate broker is the key right so like let's just use it as an example so bill I think asked the question let's say bill you're sending the tape out and Dave's gonna broker it for you and now Dave sends me the tape and now I I'm sending it out to my downline so now when I'm getting filled that a question or someone tries to buy that asset I don't know if they've sold it and I don't know what's going on so that that's where it gets to be too far and that's the danger part of dealing with the broker is you don't know how direct they are to the seller obviously so unless they have a relationship and you know who that kind of brokerage so like Joel Markowitz right he's like unknown broker and you know that he's direct to the seller he's not a guy who's taking a fourth tape over and sending it out to you you know so when I worked for the fund we actually said assets that came back to us you know that here's here's that list of assets like wow that looks familiar we got a couple we got a couple here or what are the issues and questions to ask if filing a note when a borrower's in a chapter 13 we're off topic but we'll take it so when chapter 13 it depends if you're dealing with a first or second eye in the second world definitely be concerned with that if there's no equity protection you can get wife in the first world to me it doesn't really matter it was performing or not be k13 performers are really actually highly priced because you're dealing this fiscal autonomy that you can if there's a problem you go to their BK attorney or the trustee and you file because it is stay from the foreclosure whenever BK so BK 13 I love those things they're awesome yeah on the second side I'll talk a little bit towards that the no equity is the big one right the no equity is the big one because if that if they can deem your loan unsecured you're considered an unsecured debt at that point and you get paid very minimal if you get paid at all now you'll always hear the all of the dollar in equity the dollar in equity that is the case right but it's it depends on the bankruptcy district which I'm not going to get too technical on right now but like Florida is not actually sorry New York New Jersey is not like that area right it's not the dollar in equity it's how much equity you have so if you have a dollar in equity in a state like Georgia your whole loan is covered where if you have a dollar in equity and state like Pennsylvania only your dollar is covered so it makes a difference where that dollar in equity situation comes up so bill let's question the danger of you might send money to buy it and actually available right that's huge thing with brokers you want to make sure you're dealing with the asset manager and the best way to figure that out is when you get that collateral file from that seller you want to make sure the chain of where it's in the oni when you pull it on when eight matches the chain it's seeing in the file your collateral manager should be able to detect that if you're using one if not your servicer will if not your reading to clarify yourself and say okay let me make sure that the chain from that person to you makes sense definitely so basically right you could send your funds to the wrong person and you might be paying too much for those loans because they're being brokered so what what do you see in Dave as far as I see it a lot especially a tape I was just looking at tapes people are over bidding way more than they're supposed to way more than they should there's no way they're gonna make money on those bids what do you what do you see and what do you think people should do to stop to calm it down and not get too crazy over these loans I you know it's a great great topic we've taught as a bunch of signs privately what I'm hearing a lot people is bidding is what percent of BPO or UPS you bid and we kind of veer away from that whole theory where we bid 70% and have bid 40 percent while BPO or UPB and the difference is typically it exactly and alone you're bidding of UPB interest under water keep bidding a BPO whatever numbers lower when people are bidding high mats and no dollars it's typically because they didn't do any kind of evaluations or the ROI calculator determine if the ass that makes sense it is told you can buy notes at 55 cents or 50 cents and they just go out and pay for it if the value of the property matches where you're buying a 3,000 mile property and you're buying it 60 cents you can give yourself in a bad situation quickly you didn't count the other costs so there are our calculator is a must but it's something you must build yourself I always tell people getting a deal you know getting a deal with somebody watch the costs build your calculator from there and ask a lot of questions so - maybe you are buying things too high-priced showers are getting attracted to so many people getting in space and being told just do it just do it just do it and they're bidding it and we're losing on deals we're saying there's no way you didn't look at the taxes on it you look at the sewer lien iris liens all that kind of stuff and they didn't factor it in because they didn't they weren't trained in it maybe they jumped in I don't know I feel like a lot of it is just the excitement of trying to win yes like win the bid but I don't really care how many bids I mean they care about how many that that I actually do get I make money afterwards that's more important to me yeah I I know Kenny asked a question jargon and definitely explained terms and I apologize with just being in the space for so long Peter native language yeah you know what iPod is you know UPB we talked about is unpaid principal balance and there's also a legal balance UPB typically is what the balance alone is where legal balance will include any kind of past fees we use upfront taxes paid attorney fees all kinds of in things where BPO is obviously a broker a broker's price opinion which I'm always fearful of I'm sure one of the guys in the call today can we laugh all the time he's actually a BPO agent we find about 30% of BPO is being wrong and if you talk to BPO agent they'll tell you they therapy 50 bucks they drove by on their way to their friend's house take three pictures plugged into their AVM just automate value marketing system and a plug on a number and typically break three lines on it they make their 60 bucks and gal so I don't totally count on that but so if you're paying a percentage of that number you can be in big trouble with the BPO is a tough one especially in the first world yep not as big a deal in the second world but it's what everybody harps on they always you know what's the value what's the value it's not that easy right you know you got you got to make a decision short period of time so you try to make your decision on other factors as well not just the BPO in case that's not most accurate number so that's why due diligence is important huge huge right Gary's of how easy due diligence differ when considering a single little versus an entire tape typically a great question when you're buying a single loan you're really looking at that individual loan what you can buy for what your return is when you're buying a pool level you can kind of margin eyes that number where you're buying it may be a little higher here and you're dropping values down on the other side where it bakes maybe 65 cents we normally play 60 when you're buying another asset that may be a little lower level asset and you're buying it for we've bought acid for $1 just because it you know to buy the whole pool so we may pay up for a little bit and pay down other ones so we're typically buying basing UPB at that point and putting a bit in that way but in the behind the scenes we're paying based on BPO and making sure that our returns are a percentage the return what we're looking for makes sense and whatever the percentage of UPB or BPO is just a result all that calculation right in a pool I mean you're gonna change your buying criteria slightly because you're taking on everything so you're just gonna do pluses and minuses with like what they've saying so guess what if there's a note that I think I'm gonna lose money on maybe I'll put a higher upto price on effort to lower my tax bases right at the end of the year and then on the loan I think is a homerun I might put a lower price for a higher price for whatever it like whatever you need to do to adjust it whereas you're buying a single note or two or three notes you want all those to be homeruns you don't want to miss on any of them so you're gonna be a lot stricter on your due diligence yeah all right um well I for us I guess Dave you learned from one of the bigger guys in the business yeah I learned from Fuquan which everybody knows from national milk group talk about how important that is to learning from other people learning from other people in the industry coming to these meetups and conferences and things like that absolutely I think it's key we all kind of had a different value of what we do and how we do it some people are great at certain things and hope you are great at other things every I guess educator mentor in a space is different their own way I think it's key to talk to everyone get a tidbit of everything from everyone we don't do it the same way but at the same time we're not all wrong the way I structure my setup is different from the way you do it different from other first position people different from other teachers I may not pull BPOs and everything because I don't trust them I'm trusting my values and my local agent and I taught the three agents instead of pulling one BPO I think it's key to talk to all the educators listen to videos watch them join these webinars and go to conferences and just talk to other investors and say hey what do you do how do you do it there's no right wrong way to do this it's the Wild West and we make that joke all the time I mean a good thing to do is write communicate cold people reach out to people get a network of you know to three people yeah that you could talk about the business with it different different experiences levels so or you can go to the Facebook group like days group is very active and when people post a question on there there's a lot of comments so you can get a little bit of feedback if maybe you don't know someone personally I learned a lot from reaching out to my attorneys I've told you guys probably a hundred times on these webinars is I used to have a foreclosure in California so every time I pick up the phone when I talk to that foreclosure trustee I would ask him three or four questions about notes right and I was that's when I was just getting started every time I called I two or three questions before we hung up and so by doing that I was able to pick up and speed up my learning curve and sometimes that's what you guys got to do yeah yeah I tourneys are amazing you find a few of them again the phone show and you feel like you should build them because they're so willing to share information there's some attorneys out there that won't share anything talking it servicers talking to a turn he's talking to all kinds of people as we both know our or the network that we have is amazing um people are sharing everything everywhere we're willing to talk we just like talking we like sharing information and we maybe shouldn't we share too much sometimes because the funny part is people don't take action now so if I gives me away sometimes 5050 they're not gonna use it which is kind of weird it is what it is I think with this space there's so much out there that's good or bad either way that people just overwhelm the times so now just keep it simple fine alone narrow down and then bounced off of us I'm not gonna go steal it alone because I don't got the time or energy and I respect you to learn cuz you're not gonna come back to me and me and this space is small you get bad mounts real quickly so I'll come back when I go this one look at this second what do you think and it happens it works so right it's just amazing so I guess with that right what are you seeing as the hurdle that people that people get stuck on when it's trying to buy their first note you think it's understanding the concept of how do you manage something without having to drive it drive to it every day what do you think it's the whole you know they don't they don't understand how to build out there at their team to get to work for their mark the service or like the lawyer like the realtor and everything else like that I think the combination a lot there's certain people out there that tell you how terrible dangerous world is how scary it is how all that stuff there's people there that scare people it is a legal business it's we're dealing paper it's all we're dealing with buying a house outside your area is hard but I think the biggest thing is is that the hurdle is people just afraid of what they don't know they're afraid of where to go or who to trust what what we feel is good at what if feeling is bad I my first buy I did everything wrong and I still made money I think now with so many people in the space it's best to just break through like you're asking where are you stuck let just find your it is talk to people ask questions I think people get stuck in certain spots or because they just don't have the experience there are certain places I get stuck I call my friends in space and say hey how do you know this right and you know we did what FBI I mean we haven't done @fp in a while so I ask questions been you know force-placed insurance we have a problem just ask questions don't get scared as much as it may look bad or whatever just bounce a question off somebody or team up with an ask questions that way all right so you got a couple ways to get in right let's say you're a person who's who was running who's got a job right you do what you got to do nine to five one nine to eight whatever your hours are you got a personal life and you don't have the time to manage and non-performing know then there's always the performing side right and just like people get started in the rental in a rental business they start buying cash flowing properties they get a little bit more courage and then they start going to some mid rehabs and they go to the full guts you could go work that same kind of cycle with notes because that that that evan you is there and then what is compared to what it used to be they would say get to in 2012 yeah we I got into it work at the front 10 I saw buying personally John 12 but as you said in 2012 to have lemon we're buying an over forty percent of value it was just didn't you didn't buy it over forty percent a day in a sense now it's much higher Seattle were careful there was no electronic copies oh right you send the wire you hope the guy you had what do you lose talking yeah it's a different world so the entry is in a lot of ways it got simpler yeah and you know you could see Dave's been around for years right he hasn't disappeared so you know that obviously he's doing good business so if there's something that you know you're gonna buy a performer or buy a non performer so you know that that's a reliable person to work with and it wiII be mailed back and forth another way again to space is buying parcel so if you don't have at Amana money you want to buy performer but you don't have enough money to buy a good one quote-unquote at the high price one I would go ahead and look to buy a partial at ten grand that kind stuff does make more for your money in the mean time so you figure out that note that you do want to buy yep you talk to your tourneys hey get a feel for it and while making twelve or setting your money for five years whatever it is dangle raise more money get through the cycle once and you feel more comfortable about it I'm for the pricing criteria III see I question yeah please don't focus on what you're buying it at I mean back then we're buying for less than forty percent of value I mean we're talking cheep-cheep-cheep I'm thirty to thirty four buses five six years ago don't focus on percent of BPO I said earlier buying a percent of BPO or you PB and sticking that number can be dangerous buy based on what your attorney or ROI calculator will be because that's where you need to go I see question about being a beginner you can deathly get education courses there's a ton out there you know I don't offer any training courses because there's so many out there I won't spill them all out there you can definitely find them out there but I I suggest more teaming up because people are get into education and you do more education and do more education and they never get out there and then they marketed everyone for a JV partner to get into a deal when they don't know what they're doing so the recommendations I'm not gonna give any recommendations because I don't want to say a name but I shouldn't say or vice versa right so I'll just tell you about there's free there's free resources out there all right yeah one of them is right here I'm Janice think-tank so like this interview with Dave will be up in two days on the website for free for everybody all you got to do is login then you got guys like Scott you got guys like Dave um they've danced at Oscar starting to do some stuff now ADCP it's like yeah Eddie speed Dave and where there's a lot of stuff that's out there that you don't have to spend a ton of money or nothing at all and then you have kind of like reading material like when I go through with my Facebook I go through like the East Coast group as like my newsfeed Oh like what's going on some new articles people posted there and your questions and things like that so there's recognized out there is go to just give you a plug go to your go to your conferences and just talk to all the educator because they're all selling talk to them get a feel for your like they're all personable and just talk to people you may find an investor that's been doing it for years that says sure I'll teacher and they bring you on some demand of teaching people as he gets into by with you and have more money we're capital by bigger and better you know projects mm-hmm I've always learn more by doing so yeah I feel like it when your money is on the line you want to figure something out so you don't lose what you invested and so from that you grow because you bring through some kind of struggle you are forced to either grow or you or you kind of let or that deal fell apart and then if that deal falls apart it doesn't mean that all the deals are going to be that way it just means that maybe that deal wasn't meant to be you know the numbers weren't there yeah so it didn't work out a hundred percent I think what you do is you start creating systems I think you start creating a checklist one things that one thought about tonight was collateral files you wouldn't believe once you get Claro file and this space is definitely different is that once you make an indicative offer which basically means I'm priceless to begin with before I dive into the the asset fully seen collateral files pulling BP O's pulling the Oney which is like a mini title report is making sure servicing notes are in there would you find out what's going on with the borrower and the current servicer what the service was saying to the borrower are they interacting if they are interacting what kind of situations they got into and whatnot you also get pulled property inspections where if the property was vacant making sure it was winterized with north east if it was winterize more likely there's pictures of the property inside I'm good better and different you'd get an idea where it looks like and making sure there's a federal policy if you ever bought a house if you're new year for a boathouse you have to have a federal policy at a mortgage making sure that that was clean the owner just pulls from that point from when the house is purchased to now but it just tells you a lot like bankruptcy files it just tells you a lot information you make an offer you say okay now I found out more information about the servicing notes or property inspections or whatever you make a better decision with that information and bounced all people again its space is small just start talking to people you can kind of tell who's been around for a while he has a few people about the person more than five people know about the person they've been around for long enough all right so we're talking about the system's a little bit what's your system when you buy right you you speak out and speak to a seller you give them your expectations of what you're looking to do I'll get to spend ten thousand fifty thousand a hundred thousand whatever it is they send you over tape what's the first thing that you doing to break it down for someone who's trying to get started so you know the first thing you do is I mean make it simple I mean everyone knows what Zillow is who knows the last time it is obviously we don't count on us to Mozilla with a website that ice can't beat for a map view of all the properties in the area are selling for well the old Harper's accurate no but it's the best map to look at what's sold and I easily narrow down to either 12 or 24 months see what the market is if the house looks in a condo Plex it's very easy to prove the value the property if the properties in an area where that you know every house is a 3-bedroom 2bath 1600 square foot house in a certain area and they're all priced at you know in Ohio for 55 to 58 thousand you can I get a good number on it that you're gonna sites to find it taxes we're gonna sites we used as Nitra online to kind of dig into you want you can look for hold your dockets sometimes in some counties but you also get pulled things like you can get deep and look at permits and some of that you want it basically good idea is the house and a good situation and then we use Google Maps to kind of Google walk we call it and walk the street and see what the property looks like big maps if the big maps usually a Lou Newark map and look at them look at the house looks like make sure you walk down the street and walk back up we've seen a few properties and Google Maps where we turn the block and the property was absolutely gone from one view it was there and kind of find out that in a lot of two years the view changed on that street and the property was demolished right walk it all the stuff and then reach out the agents you know you all different sites out there you want to get a feel what it looks like out there not only just from the northeast actually people in like Alabama they're really really sweet and they'll do all this stuff for free just with the promise that getting the REO at the end it's amazing right so I would definitely get into value kind of plug in see what the value is look for house is the same bedroom same bathroom same square footage and whatnot this is after getting a tape from a legitimate seller that you know one of the key ways to see it with the seller you go to the county site look at the recordings you'll see having a mortgage ASM and you see who the last recording was typically it will show that seller if it doesn't you can ask seller or you guys want a boss who we can tell you that the diligent so or not all right most the time we could tell you there isn't a lot of sellers out there so if you're trying to find a brand new source it's very difficult to do that mm-hmm and so yes Dave days breaking it down for you you want to break it that you want to try to make it simple so you could so you could knock this thing out right that's when a seller sends you something and especially if it's going to be small level like you know it's called 10 loans unless they're expecting you to knock that out within two of the three days of your due diligence right or at least give them an indicative bid during that time yep you know you don't you don't want to be and this is important for this is an important mistake or that happens right for new people is they request all this information they request all these tapes but then they become known as the person that does not close so then those tapes stop coming the emails stop getting answered and that kind of stuff so you want it you want to be an action taker at a certain point and so if you have to break that you do diligence break it down into four steps right yep what's going on with the lien security of the property are there other liens going on there if there is the lien in the correct order so you go to Netra online and check that out you can find out what's going on with the taxes you can find out what's going on with the sewer all that stuff for this you know seconds were told what's going on the senior lien that's another thing we got to check on you check bankruptcy you check property values you check some info on the borrower so you break it down into four or five steps and you should be able to knock it out and if you just go with that and there's gonna be certain steps that's going to knock out that loan for you you know you pull it up and they got fifty thousand in taxes that they're behind on a seventy-five thousand dollar house maybe that you stop right there there's no need to find out what's going on with the borrower there's no need to check anything else at that point you know so this is the kind of stuff that that we've done is we know if we're buying in a smaller level there's going to be things that are right off the bat they don't pass the test and so we don't look any further we don't waste any more time on that typically you you know hate the sterilise on these kind of things but the street has cars on blocks bars in the window those kind of things are you going trillion look at crime you know crime history on the property you know I'm just crimes with a crime figures a website crimes I have in my book marks Crime Stoppers with it where you can see what happened yesterday in the local town where you can see up you know someone shot someone guess you have four o'clock you want a house in a good neighborhood because ideas you want to be sure you can sell the property if you take it back oh that's the fear if this thing is a two-bedroom in an area we're all three bedrooms it's gonna be a harder sell even you can prove value selling it two bedrooms not easy in certain areas age of the house making sure if it's 1900 hours and has stuff added to it code violations could be all over the place Oh funny how big things um is take a look at states with foreclosure timeframes you know what states you need debt license but also what our foreclosure states timeframes are you looking at like a Texas foreclosure or you dealing with a Jersey one that's occupied New Jersey for all those you know you can foreclose in six months if it's vacant for three years but most property 12 18 months were a while you're a year those are kinda things you won't worry about too because you want to focus on Tennessee's the Texas is with that if you can buy them in a reasonable price so there's it's a lot of little things that did seem easy to us because we do it every day but just start your system and saying okay why my folks on this create an area where you get you contact me if family members in you know Mississippi or somewhere that you just hey listen I want to buy more there because I resources I can have them dry by I'll use we look and just look at the property look in the windows Facebook the borrower's name I mean you can find some crazy stuff out there I've seen you'll you know 19 old kid rapping walking through his house I know the house is occupied and they condition the property go robbing through the house like okay this is great in taro pictures you can see I just got a job or my husband the hospital you can find little things out where it's like wow that's got this person just got a job and they're bragging on Facebook this bar could perform tomorrow possibly know those kind of things but they're the your first thing is just finding a value flying out of the property you want again to look at Google Maps see the property in the first base that's all banners is the how the house looks were asset based functionality we're seconds is more the borrower functionality we don't pull we don't pull credit reports like you guys do we've totally should but it's something we it's a secondary thing for us they can house honestly for me it's a secondary thing also I use it it's just because I need to get the senior lien info so I pull a credit I barely use a credit I look at it as I know enough about the bar were based off if they're current on the first and and then that's and their bankruptcy record and I know enough about the borrower from that point and you can and you can learn a lot like I've said before if you go to natural online upstate put in the chat you can see like they've been foreclosed on on the first and they didn't do a modification till I got to the sale date when I'm that let's say I'm the second mortgage holder now I know exactly my strategy I need to get to the sale be because then that's when they're gonna pay this they already showed it in their cat you know that's a characteristic that they had that's what exactly what they're going to do it's the playbook in bankruptcy file you can also see cuz typically they'll put the value of the property in the bankruptcy file you can actually pull what the house value is based on what they're saying because a lot of good information what their jobs are there how many leases they got going on all the stuff that happening but you know I use Facebook also to find out their relatives their daughters or sons just do a lot of stuff the first thing to do is just find value find out the value see a picture of it at for agent to do a drive-by on the time sites we use to find an information but with systems we are you know you'll find your ROI calculating through you find your agents and then go from there to figure out what the value the property is what you're willing to pay for it add up all your costs that's a big thing ROI calculators cost one of the things for smaller investors is make sure that and I'll definitely touch banks in a second when you run your re calculator please make sure you're adding in the foreclosure time period taxes not just what's currently owed because most people add in just what's currently owed and it's like New Jersey if you're buying an asset today you have a year foreclosure you're looking at possibly five ten thousand dollars additional taxes on top of what's owed now so the common event banks I know a lot of people been talk about dialing for dollars for banks it's like darling for you know properties that wholesalers do um I know many people who tried it it's very rare do knocked at home run and get all the bank to lend deals they're just not used to dealing with it if they want to sell you can get smaller banks to do it it's just a lot of work to do to find that golden egg it you're trying to find a source that no one else knows and other people have more time effort in network connections to typically find that golden egg before you do and if it isn't it's probably not they're not saying it isn't um you know I know copula just knocked home a bunch of Santonio properties by doing it by just so many people were suggested to do that I taught to perform about it two percent of people get on the phone with someone who has asset list and I most people who get a nice list or assets they're like you know abandon factories and you know this pecan building Church six churches and there's AG want properties well we have all this if you finally got a bank you find our connection and see acids you don't want I feel like you'll have more luck if you just follow the assignment chain yep and maybe let's just use granite as an example right granite sell on a tape what did they buy it from yeah B they bought from another fund you know like I used to do that I used to make those calls that's the kind of calls I would make and just follow the ass just follow the chain and maybe you can pick up maybe that fun border from a different fund and IH now you discovered a new source that's that's the kind of calls that I've made in the past the bank calls I used to I mean I've tried that years ago it just wasn't it just wasn't something that worked for me I found it better to network with different people in the industry and then all of a sudden look I get a phone call look I need you to partner in on this deal with us we're going into by with company X or fun 2x and that's that's the kind of stuff that that I've had success with is just being active buying whatever is available that fits your criteria and then talking with people so that if something big comes along they think of you yep because you come together with the capital your special effective diligence or you know whatever that skillset you might be that helps them pull down on the trade I also find a lot of people to get these asset lists Nick y one else's pick through it you'd be surprised how many people get these lists and don't buy the fun I came from I mean I've been told that they get less than 15 peeled bidding on assets I mean there's been services who sent out tapes and they said no one's been on assets I mean don't try reinventing the wheel there's so many people out there that have lists just go through the list because it's not allowed peel bidding on them you're they're stuck on trying to find a special asset you know deal with it from a bank and they're spending less time on the asset list people are bidding what you do doing so you know you do you definitely walk through things with people to either you know you connect with and buy from tapes are available I just amazing that people are are just not taking tapes and you're missing an asset I've seen something on taped that bypassed three times and I bypassed and then I realized holy cow I just completely misses one for whatever reason and I bid on it surprised anyone else did kind of and we hit a homerun on it it's just tough because people are trying to find that edge and sometimes just buying what you can get ahold of sometimes people are avoiding certain areas because they had a bad experience for a long time I avoid Hamilton County Ohio because it took five months post foreclosure to get addy transferred well guess what I didn't buy a camera Hamilton Ohio for four years because I was didn't want to foreclosure problem those high hats so we just all right yeah definitely so Michelle actually reached out here in the chat she told mark that she's willing to JV with him so welcome to his firstly also look at that I mean a marriage happens today magic comma weird yeah you can definitely Jamie Leigh people I know Michelle you know bunch time we've interacted it there's amazing spaces pretty much anyone in space will JV with you and walk you through come in you know just reach out we've done a ton of Jamie's with people the only thing I tell people when I JV with people is I won't buy an ass is worth less than thirty one less than fifty because of the risk levels I don't buy a $20,000 asset I don't buy these low-level CFDs just because you can hold on you can get real big myths so IV are those away from those things we gave you people you have to have some money um you know I've done Moses up we've bought three today with JV partners who want to get into it but you know they're spending forty fifty thousand dollars on assets just because it's less riskier asset buying it there when the values at eighty eighty-five would it possible you know another thing is people miss out on when you do an ROI calculator figure that they yield on it when you're buying it because if it does perform you wanna make sure the yield works out there's simple yield and there's we post in the East Coast group today the time value ield I have an Excel spreadsheet that I kind of share whatever one making sure the time value yield makes sense to you don't want to buy someone a JV partner where the yield is a nine percent but you didn't look at that because it'll look a great foreclosure situation if you need go that route in the first base so I can't ask question you try a cure non-performing absolutely most these loans have been doing delinquent for at least a year so the reorders are great the return is typically good so you're always trying to reach out to a borrower using your servicer a third party vendor whoever you can reach out yourself can be dangerous but you can reach out yourself you are always trying to make that happen it's a win-win for everybody and typically a passive loan you could sell off partially or fully in a great manner but yeah when I already talked to my JV partners the first route is performing and making a make sense if it doesn't make sense you just move on mm-hmm Donald don't be married to this you know because you want to win so bad it's something that you mentioned a bunch is the indicative bit right thinking a bit is important because it's not only you know you're kind of setting the expectation of what you're you know these are the ones you're gonna hone in on and focus on but you're also testing the seller to see how ridiculous their pricing might be or how fair their pricing might be and so you put in they could have bid and they come in and they counter at twenty thousand thirty thousand dollars more than you and fit in all right well there's a couple knowns you long as you don't have to look at because you're not going to bid that high it means how many sellers say well we're not gonna give you a pricing on our tape and I see fine I put a bid and they give you pricing afterwards well then you know what sometimes I just put a bar out there to see what their bid price is okay it's like they won't give you a number but they'll give you a count of you right amazing people just just put an offer out there that makes sense and I'm back to it there isn't a magic number one thing we did find that's a little kind of seekers you know finance it's been sitting around for a while these lenders who are selling assets may have 20 assets itself but they might have may have 400 and if they have a loan they keep trying to put out they they may drop the price because their basis is low on it or they've had over a while um you just been sitting on for a while truck tracking deals tracking offers he'd be seeing probably three four or five times throw a lowball out there they're trying to get rid of it all right we've bought assets at you know thirty cents a dollar because we bought property in New Jersey I mean ridiculous it was on four tapes but I knew the value of it you know once I got into it I'll trends bad but we dive into it it was on one of three streets and Trenton worth over 150 grand where most of trends worth like 40 well this has died of 40 grand on a on paper I bought it for 28 it instantly I sold over 85 within three months so right so I've got a question here no equity position no on a second borrowing default on the first one you're the option so option number one is is let's see if they're gonna file bankruptcy right and then option number two is are they gonna do a short sale that's kind of the options at that point you don't you know you don't want to dive into and put any more money into it towards foreclosure or anything like that because until they get that first straightened out there's you know there's nothing there's no money to put towards it you know it's just wasted money at that point keep an eye on that on HOA liens in certain states - we've had situations where we got a one situation where the h of lien HOA lien filed foreclosure three years prior and while we bought and transitioned it went to foreclosure I got the bar to perform she promised to pay the HOA a lien within three months she she the HOA lien facing foreclosure and I got notice of the auction I laughed because I was in first position to find out that my lien was actually in default because the person who own the lien before I did never answered the fault letter so we're actually the fault of the whole thing so we had to sneak back into second position to just have access to this foreclosure auction so check it here all little things you know we all have different stories we've been into but that one was a unique one where I would never have checked the HOA you know let them for clothes they're in third position well they weren't because my lien whoever owned it before never answered the default letter what does it happen the seller get when they're trying to sell they're like look we're not the deal with this let's just get this thing off for books and and we'll worry about it afterwards but I you know luckily for Davey was able to recover that's why due diligence is so important and now he's gonna factor that in to go and he stuff going forward this one I would be HOA I mean just double check this stuff yeah and your checklist it grows as you keep doing it you know you know interacting people hearing stories oh it is you know for note investors around you hey give me some bad stories give me some what happens from drug dealers selling drugs in the house to you know you can't evict somebody because they have you know tenant laws because they moved in for a day to everything you know another thing we've done more and more now is in property inspections on vacant homes if that property is vacate make sure you do proper inspections because if you have a problem the the foreclosure your FBI your force-placed insurance he's know when the incident happened if you can't move it they won't pay the claim out I know those kind of things are the way about again that's deeper stuff but for newbies just take your file look at the loan get values take a look at the picture of the property get a drive-by make sure it's not a piece of land that's not down now get value look at taxes go on you know the tax side the county site you can look at foreclosures on the county side as well just county records or put the state city and state in and look up Supreme Court and you can see the foreclosure data reach out to attorney and say hey what's the status situation and they easily could tell you what's happening with the loan what's going on and let them describe to you and then you can actually take the collateral file and send to an attorney and say hey can you look through this and make sure it's okay and if there's any issues I mean obviously they'll charge you for it but an attorney will let you know if it's for closable or not or with any problems um and those kind of things because there's some times where the sign it missing or lawns missing or you know the notes not sign or something crazy you know what make sure the papers good we're in the paper business here so I've done that before and complicated foreclosure that maybe inheriting yep before I bought the loan I run it by the attorney because I rather pay the attorney couple hundred dollars to review it but then I pay a few thousand dollars or more to buy this to buy this loan that maybe I can't do anything with so it's definitely a good idea yeah I see the very employment for performing the notes it's definitely you could do that I mean you could pull you usually pull that in credit or you can look at LinkedIn you can look at for you know Facebook hire you know private eye sometimes you can find that information out you know but I would say a person can be come in and played tomorrow you know it performing outs are risky they have a high chance to fault as well so you know things can happen but it works out bill I see the question about you know hiring an attorney servicer I use Richmond Road for a long time you could definitely use them attorneys are really good Avenue there are a lot more money where you can like Richmond Monroe you can do a pre file which means before the file comes to you they'll review it in the soft we call it electronic version there's reviewed electronic for think thirty five hours I know review and check seed all assignments are there everything's there and in when it comes in whatnot we as a different company now but there I don't believe they're bringing more customers in but you can definitely teach other training so listen key review is it electronic version and some attorneys will and let you know what's going on you can definitely have servicers last week webinar we had last week we had you know Shawn TEI from Madison jewel review collateral files let you know if she sees anything wrong it's a legal piece of paper that we don't know a lot about when you're first getting into space you know if there's a note that's blank what do you do with that scary you come in fire actually the good thing you know to anyone oh yeah you can definitely have people these collateral files you know to review check out just making sure they can get to the attorney if need be and get recorded we stopped doing a lot of stuff ourselves a lot of recordings because the system of doing it and make sure you spend time it's worth it to you on stuff you can outsource just outsource it they're better at it they're less time-consuming at it you do this long enough just don't don't try doing everything yourself use your systems and you don't have systems ask the best way do it yeah just build it out step by step so the first system that you should be working on if you haven't been able to get into your first purchase yet which is you're buying right what do you know what are you doing to break that down so that you can you can execute on your first purchase and then from there you know if you if it's overwhelming to work out the non performer you could put it with a servicer like Madison take you can make the calls or they can make the calls so they're giving you that option or after that and you can just monitor the situation see how well did you do on your purchase that maybe your you know you're able to see the end result worked out through a servicer yeah it'll up you'll ask questions like what service rate I'd go to FCI Madison land home you know SN you know it all depends on what you need I'm sure shanties on the call tonight she is very easy to work with my first dealings I throw to Madison myself because I didn't understand the servicing end of it I understood the diligence part of it dealing with you know borrowers what you can and can't say you have to follow this debt collection laws of how you can call borrower Madison kind of walks you through it or the other ones kind of let you do either don't let you touch it all or let you touch it very carefully with them on the phone you know so I think that people you know just get started but get started with people you can lean on bounce the deal off somebody um and I just I see so many emails come through ask for JV partners just be careful with that that's another thing I think the people don't get onto it because if you do a deal like that in the that you find a grand-slam guy with $500,000 you think you're diving in a great situation and you screw up the deal the first time you completely lost a funding partner better off teaming up with somebody you know and say listen I'll split the Commission to deal with it I'll get this guy in let me just walk through it or whatever and work with some of you already know to make that deal happen but to me B or J be with me J view me and they have an idea or they done one that worked out great and they haven't got the pitfalls yet you can lose a lot of money doing that and you can piss lobule off you want me to keep that you got that million-dollar guy you want to keep him around for a while you don't want to screw in the first deal like just because you didn't know what you're doing it's not a small deal you know people go to college they paid $20,000 a year ago to college whatever it is and they walk out with nothing at that year spend 10 $15 buy a small second buy small first whatever and if it goes bad you're okay you know mm-hmm and I agree with you I mean sometimes you're you're not ready for that partner either so understand where you're at and it's it's not that you know because this person raised millions of dollars now that means you need to raise millions of dollars if that's not like this that's not the way that you're built then don't do that do what you do well yeah stay with that so if that's working by yourself and find one one every six months and you know and building it up slowly then that's what you do if you can handle a situation where you bring on the extra capital to grow a little bit differently because not always faster it might be it might be sideways for a little while because you're taking on more work than you can handle you you didn't account for everything at first so that's why it's important to work through your first couple of deals you figure what your skill set is maybe your set is your due diligence and so you partnered with a funding partner and then you put it with the servicer or maybe your skill set is raising the capital and you outsource a different part of the business so just figure out what you do well and then fit your way in there because you don't have to do everything well it's plenty of people to help you along the way yeah yeah I think that's that where people lose it at they try jumping in funds deals get in the situation they jump in but it is jumping wrong just find the deal you like pass it through a few people and maybe you find dealing you bring my orange ELISA Meyer I wanna do this deal can you just JB and kind of help me out I'll give you a portion of it I just want to do it do a small deal you just can get yourself in a lot of trouble and if you bring a JV partner in and you take their money and you they do nothing you can get in a lot of trouble doing that because if they do nothing at all they're not really a joint venture partner just be careful with that you know you want team up with somebody you really want to do is team up with somebody that you know that's in a space that's starting to and then both you guys join with someone in experience get an idea what happens and then go on your own and do your own thing raising funds is it sound easy as easy as it is right just raise money it's not that simple there's so many laws and rules which apply to it and so if you're if you're ready for that then I go for it you know I'm sure you did you do diligence and talk to the attorneys and all that but it's it's not as as simple as picking up the phone yeah just make sure you get a deal that you notice and the seller talk to them sellers are not to be pushy if they are walk get in a situation where you talk to your servicers talk to you tourney's they understand you know I can't stress enough talk to the agent tell him to go bug or he or she go buy that property ask about the area call local property manager company and say hey what do you know about this property you never know where you find out Google the address you mean fund the house and fire damage last year so right so Dave aren't you I'm gonna just go through this one slide whenever it loads up all right all right but the final thought for the night so up next meetup is January 9th so a couple weeks off your holiday break you know take a little bit of time we'll get back at a second week in January the Expo is coming up it's in February you definitely want to get on that especially all these people people on the call people love attending webinars the past few weeks looking to get into your first deal you can meet Dave in person along with like you know 200 plus other people it'll be a great time always the number one question I get into the webinar is this recording available it will be available and it's going to post it on Thursday you'll all get an email about it as well so I look forward to you know hopefully you guys are join the event Dave you won't leave everyone off with something yeah look forward to seeing you guys in January if I don't see you guys feel free I'll put my email address in that niche as well yeah my biggest advice is don't be scared of space but also don't be tuberous taking the space is small everybody knows each other and you know critique your ROI calculators are in a note we only give our own categories away but we'll tell you what the expenses that we do add into it put it all together and bid don't bid higher and stuff just because you've been on percentage bid on stuff you know it's solid and be careful brokers just kind of summarize everything I think I think this is a promo code but either way I'm being right right I drew the promo code chat so yeah definitely manage the 40 see you guys if you're in Jersey the night before I'm gonna kind of pry everyone kind of gather together if you are early stop by and say hello chat for a while and enjoy everybody you can watch the panelists at the conferences they're amazing including Dave absolutely all right man appreciate you jumping on tonight anytime enjoy all right we're on welcome everybody to be to the webinar tonight the call tonight we have a local guy my neighbor to the south here David putz what's going on man do a man there were you doing good so just fill people in on what you do what you're about whoever you know in case people don't know who you are sure I'm in the first-base a little different from where we've been by note since chugging 12 started in a fund and moved on buying it we by knob performing firsts we do buy a few performers here or there but pretty much buy nationwide for five years or so now stay with a smaller market 50,001 $50,000 BPO range by a bunch of different people and just get through the day by evaluating deals based on value and using your networks we have and just building as we go along so this isn't about me is we've been just buying real estate and notes has been the best way of doing it for last five years from our point of view definitely definitely so here's a question that I have right why are you targeting that that fair market at UPB value that your fair market about 50 to 150 thousand what's the what's the sweet spot that you see in there sure anything below that number makes it difficult because if you're off by your percentage of ten percent of value you can get in a real difficult spot foreclosure costs and different expenses are typically fixed you're rehabbing a property of you need paint and carpet if you empty the trash out foreclosure costs all those are pretty much fixed dollar amounts when it comes to if you're buying a 300-mile property those fixed numbers can quickly eat up when you're buying it a little bit above that number this fixed month that fixed amount becomes a small percentage up to about 150 once you get above 150 we find the bars a little bit or intelligent and able to play the game and bill hire attorneys and fighter their battles for them so we find that between the values of live 150 but nothing too much over 150 kind of makes it work out for both of us in the long run yeah definitely I understand on the the the borrower's they get a little more crafty I guess with their de foreclosure defense instead of you know what comes down to anyway is just big if the mortgage that's got to be paid absolutely so I guess you know we're trying to talk about tonight avoiding problems avoiding those pitfalls people get started in the business so what's what's a big one that you see I feel like brokers is is a scary one for a lot of people they don't know how to handle it and they don't know how to identify those type of people absolutely I just dealt with this a few times actually this week and it seems like every week we deal with this some real quick tip it's live always uses there's a there isn't a lot of sellers became without there most likely sellers are not hiring people to sell the product so the best way to detect a broker is kind of ask questions that they should know if they're brokering product the two biggest ones I target are a scam a with a service or the loans are if they ask you why or whatever say listen some services are are better than others so if they're not that good of a servicer I'm more attracted the asset if they are unable to tell you who the servicer is I have been asked who the collateral manager is who was managing the collateral file for the the assets those things typically either opt the broker or they're unable to answer it always avoid if they ask you for POF I've never ever ever had a variety left okay except for I think one case actually for you know what if that's the I or some way that kind of a really a real estate firm it's not it's not something that's common in no at all so those are the kind of things I always tell people ask the question who's servicing Alone's who's claro manager if they can if those questions question the broker here's the problem brokering Claro manager the question was that's to be the person that will hold the file record your assignments and they'll go chase down in the issues servers just can do some of that stuff but it's outside third-party vendors la people use Richmond ro we as a different source but the big thing we find out from people are when you deal with a broker you don't know who actually owns the assets which is dangerous I've been stationed in the beginning where I'm trying to chase something down to find out that broker has a seller who's actually brokering who extra burglars where else you don't know that ass is still available you don't know what's going on the asset and you can typically not get to the actual asset manager right I like this thing you see the questions this is great to pop up here you definitely can buy from brokers I'm not saying you shouldn't I'm saying the fear of buying from a broker can be dangerous if there are truly a broker and not actually somebody who can directly link you to them the number of people out there that have who are brokering notes is very few I it's very informal way of doing it most sellers just directly sent it to you the product it just it makes it more difficult how do they know the property is still available are they no details it just makes the chain so when they when people say hey there's no chain here I'm I'm direct to the seller to me that's already a chain so it's it's not like that all brokers are bad but who is a legitimate broker is the key right so like let's just use it as an example so bill I think asked the question let's say bill you're sending the tape out and Dave's gonna broker it for you and now Dave sends me the tape and now I I'm sending it out to my downline so now when I'm getting filled that a question or someone tries to buy that asset I don't know if they've sold it and I don't know what's going on so that that's where it gets to be too far and that's the danger part of dealing with the broker is you don't know how direct they are to the seller obviously so unless they have a relationship and you know who that kind of brokerage so like Joel Markowitz right he's like unknown broker and you know that he's direct to the seller he's not a guy who's taking a fourth tape over and sending it out to you you know so when I worked for the fund we actually said assets that came back to us you know that here's here's that list of assets like wow that looks familiar we got a couple we got a couple here or what are the issues and questions to ask if filing a note when a borrower's in a chapter 13 we're off topic but we'll take it so when chapter 13 it depends if you're dealing with a first or second eye in the second world definitely be concerned with that if there's no equity protection you can get wife in the first world to me it doesn't really matter it was performing or not be k13 performers are really actually highly priced because you're dealing this fiscal autonomy that you can if there's a problem you go to their BK attorney or the trustee and you file because it is stay from the foreclosure whenever BK so BK 13 I love those things they're awesome yeah on the second side I'll talk a little bit towards that the no equity is the big one right the no equity is the big one because if that if they can deem your loan unsecured you're considered an unsecured debt at that point and you get paid very minimal if you get paid at all now you'll always hear the all of the dollar in equity the dollar in equity that is the case right but it's it depends on the bankruptcy district which I'm not going to get too technical on right now but like Florida is not actually sorry New York New Jersey is not like that area right it's not the dollar in equity it's how much equity you have so if you have a dollar in equity in a state like Georgia your whole loan is covered where if you have a dollar in equity and state like Pennsylvania only your dollar is covered so it makes a difference where that dollar in equity situation comes up so bill let's question the danger of you might send money to buy it and actually available right that's huge thing with brokers you want to make sure you're dealing with the asset manager and the best way to figure that out is when you get that collateral file from that seller you want to make sure the chain of where it's in the oni when you pull it on when eight matches the chain it's seeing in the file your collateral manager should be able to detect that if you're using one if not your servicer will if not your reading to clarify yourself and say okay let me make sure that the chain from that person to you makes sense definitely so basically right you could send your funds to the wrong person and you might be paying too much for those loans because they're being brokered so what what do you see in Dave as far as I see it a lot especially a tape I was just looking at tapes people are over bidding way more than they're supposed to way more than they should there's no way they're gonna make money on those bids what do you what do you see and what do you think people should do to stop to calm it down and not get too crazy over these loans I you know it's a great great topic we've taught as a bunch of signs privately what I'm hearing a lot people is bidding is what percent of BPO or UPS you bid and we kind of veer away from that whole theory where we bid 70% and have bid 40 percent while BPO or UPB and the difference is typically it exactly and alone you're bidding of UPB interest under water keep bidding a BPO whatever numbers lower when people are bidding high mats and no dollars it's typically because they didn't do any kind of evaluations or the ROI calculator determine if the ass that makes sense it is told you can buy notes at 55 cents or 50 cents and they just go out and pay for it if the value of the property matches where you're buying a 3,000 mile property and you're buying it 60 cents you can give yourself in a bad situation quickly you didn't count the other costs so there are our calculator is a must but it's something you must build yourself I always tell people getting a deal you know getting a deal with somebody watch the costs build your calculator from there and ask a lot of questions so - maybe you are buying things too high-priced showers are getting attracted to so many people getting in space and being told just do it just do it just do it and they're bidding it and we're losing on deals we're saying there's no way you didn't look at the taxes on it you look at the sewer lien iris liens all that kind of stuff and they didn't factor it in because they didn't they weren't trained in it maybe they jumped in I don't know I feel like a lot of it is just the excitement of trying to win yes like win the bid but I don't really care how many bids I mean they care about how many that that I actually do get I make money afterwards that's more important to me yeah I I know Kenny asked a question jargon and definitely explained terms and I apologize with just being in the space for so long Peter native language yeah you know what iPod is you know UPB we talked about is unpaid principal balance and there's also a legal balance UPB typically is what the balance alone is where legal balance will include any kind of past fees we use upfront taxes paid attorney fees all kinds of in things where BPO is obviously a broker a broker's price opinion which I'm always fearful of I'm sure one of the guys in the call today can we laugh all the time he's actually a BPO agent we find about 30% of BPO is being wrong and if you talk to BPO agent they'll tell you they therapy 50 bucks they drove by on their way to their friend's house take three pictures plugged into their AVM just automate value marketing system and a plug on a number and typically break three lines on it they make their 60 bucks and gal so I don't totally count on that but so if you're paying a percentage of that number you can be in big trouble with the BPO is a tough one especially in the first world yep not as big a deal in the second world but it's what everybody harps on they always you know what's the value what's the value it's not that easy right you know you got you got to make a decision short period of time so you try to make your decision on other factors as well not just the BPO in case that's not most accurate number so that's why due diligence is important huge huge right Gary's of how easy due diligence differ when considering a single little versus an entire tape typically a great question when you're buying a single loan you're really looking at that individual loan what you can buy for what your return is when you're buying a pool level you can kind of margin eyes that number where you're buying it may be a little higher here and you're dropping values down on the other side where it bakes maybe 65 cents we normally play 60 when you're buying another asset that may be a little lower level asset and you're buying it for we've bought acid for $1 just because it you know to buy the whole pool so we may pay up for a little bit and pay down other ones so we're typically buying basing UPB at that point and putting a bit in that way but in the behind the scenes we're paying based on BPO and making sure that our returns are a percentage the return what we're looking for makes sense and whatever the percentage of UPB or BPO is just a result all that calculation right in a pool I mean you're gonna change your buying criteria slightly because you're taking on everything so you're just gonna do pluses and minuses with like what they've saying so guess what if there's a note that I think I'm gonna lose money on maybe I'll put a higher upto price on effort to lower my tax bases right at the end of the year and then on the loan I think is a homerun I might put a lower price for a higher price for whatever it like whatever you need to do to adjust it whereas you're buying a single note or two or three notes you want all those to be homeruns you don't want to miss on any of them so you're gonna be a lot stricter on your due diligence yeah all right um well I for us I guess Dave you learned from one of the bigger guys in the business yeah I learned from Fuquan which everybody knows from national milk group talk about how important that is to learning from other people learning from other people in the industry coming to these meetups and conferences and things like that absolutely I think it's key we all kind of had a different value of what we do and how we do it some people are great at certain things and hope you are great at other things every I guess educator mentor in a space is different their own way I think it's key to talk to everyone get a tidbit of everything from everyone we don't do it the same way but at the same time we're not all wrong the way I structure my setup is different from the way you do it different from other first position people different from other teachers I may not pull BPOs and everything because I don't trust them I'm trusting my values and my local agent and I taught the three agents instead of pulling one BPO I think it's key to talk to all the educators listen to videos watch them join these webinars and go to conferences and just talk to other investors and say hey what do you do how do you do it there's no right wrong way to do this it's the Wild West and we make that joke all the time I mean a good thing to do is write communicate cold people reach out to people get a network of you know to three people yeah that you could talk about the business with it different different experiences levels so or you can go to the Facebook group like days group is very active and when people post a question on there there's a lot of comments so you can get a little bit of feedback if maybe you don't know someone personally I learned a lot from reaching out to my attorneys I've told you guys probably a hundred times on these webinars is I used to have a foreclosure in California so every time I pick up the phone when I talk to that foreclosure trustee I would ask him three or four questions about notes right and I was that's when I was just getting started every time I called I two or three questions before we hung up and so by doing that I was able to pick up and speed up my learning curve and sometimes that's what you guys got to do yeah yeah I tourneys are amazing you find a few of them again the phone show and you feel like you should build them because they're so willing to share information there's some attorneys out there that won't share anything talking it servicers talking to a turn he's talking to all kinds of people as we both know our or the network that we have is amazing um people are sharing everything everywhere we're willing to talk we just like talking we like sharing information and we maybe shouldn't we share too much sometimes because the funny part is people don't take action now so if I gives me away sometimes 5050 they're not gonna use it which is kind of weird it is what it is I think with this space there's so much out there that's good or bad either way that people just overwhelm the times so now just keep it simple fine alone narrow down and then bounced off of us I'm not gonna go steal it alone because I don't got the time or energy and I respect you to learn cuz you're not gonna come back to me and me and this space is small you get bad mounts real quickly so I'll come back when I go this one look at this second what do you think and it happens it works so right it's just amazing so I guess with that right what are you seeing as the hurdle that people that people get stuck on when it's trying to buy their first note you think it's understanding the concept of how do you manage something without having to drive it drive to it every day what do you think it's the whole you know they don't they don't understand how to build out there at their team to get to work for their mark the service or like the lawyer like the realtor and everything else like that I think the combination a lot there's certain people out there that tell you how terrible dangerous world is how scary it is how all that stuff there's people there that scare people it is a legal business it's we're dealing paper it's all we're dealing with buying a house outside your area is hard but I think the biggest thing is is that the hurdle is people just afraid of what they don't know they're afraid of where to go or who to trust what what we feel is good at what if feeling is bad I my first buy I did everything wrong and I still made money I think now with so many people in the space it's best to just break through like you're asking where are you stuck let just find your it is talk to people ask questions I think people get stuck in certain spots or because they just don't have the experience there are certain places I get stuck I call my friends in space and say hey how do you know this right and you know we did what FBI I mean we haven't done @fp in a while so I ask questions been you know force-placed insurance we have a problem just ask questions don't get scared as much as it may look bad or whatever just bounce a question off somebody or team up with an ask questions that way all right so you got a couple ways to get in right let's say you're a person who's who was running who's got a job right you do what you got to do nine to five one nine to eight whatever your hours are you got a personal life and you don't have the time to manage and non-performing know then there's always the performing side right and just like people get started in the rental in a rental business they start buying cash flowing properties they get a little bit more courage and then they start going to some mid rehabs and they go to the full guts you could go work that same kind of cycle with notes because that that that evan you is there and then what is compared to what it used to be they would say get to in 2012 yeah we I got into it work at the front 10 I saw buying personally John 12 but as you said in 2012 to have lemon we're buying an over forty percent of value it was just didn't you didn't buy it over forty percent a day in a sense now it's much higher Seattle were careful there was no electronic copies oh right you send the wire you hope the guy you had what do you lose talking yeah it's a different world so the entry is in a lot of ways it got simpler yeah and you know you could see Dave's been around for years right he hasn't disappeared so you know that obviously he's doing good business so if there's something that you know you're gonna buy a performer or buy a non performer so you know that that's a reliable person to work with and it wiII be mailed back and forth another way again to space is buying parcel so if you don't have at Amana money you want to buy performer but you don't have enough money to buy a good one quote-unquote at the high price one I would go ahead and look to buy a partial at ten grand that kind stuff does make more for your money in the mean time so you figure out that note that you do want to buy yep you talk to your tourneys hey get a feel for it and while making twelve or setting your money for five years whatever it is dangle raise more money get through the cycle once and you feel more comfortable about it I'm for the pricing criteria III see I question yeah please don't focus on what you're buying it at I mean back then we're buying for less than forty percent of value I mean we're talking cheep-cheep-cheep I'm thirty to thirty four buses five six years ago don't focus on percent of BPO I said earlier buying a percent of BPO or you PB and sticking that number can be dangerous buy based on what your attorney or ROI calculator will be because that's where you need to go I see question about being a beginner you can deathly get education courses there's a ton out there you know I don't offer any training courses because there's so many out there I won't spill them all out there you can definitely find them out there but I I suggest more teaming up because people are get into education and you do more education and do more education and they never get out there and then they marketed everyone for a JV partner to get into a deal when they don't know what they're doing so the recommendations I'm not gonna give any recommendations because I don't want to say a name but I shouldn't say or vice versa right so I'll just tell you about there's free there's free resources out there all right yeah one of them is right here I'm Janice think-tank so like this interview with Dave will be up in two days on the website for free for everybody all you got to do is login then you got guys like Scott you got guys like Dave um they've danced at Oscar starting to do some stuff now ADCP it's like yeah Eddie speed Dave and where there's a lot of stuff that's out there that you don't have to spend a ton of money or nothing at all and then you have kind of like reading material like when I go through with my Facebook I go through like the East Coast group as like my newsfeed Oh like what's going on some new articles people posted there and your questions and things like that so there's recognized out there is go to just give you a plug go to your go to your conferences and just talk to all the educator because they're all selling talk to them get a feel for your like they're all personable and just talk to people you may find an investor that's been doing it for years that says sure I'll teacher and they bring you on some demand of teaching people as he gets into by with you and have more money we're capital by bigger and better you know projects mm-hmm I've always learn more by doing so yeah I feel like it when your money is on the line you want to figure something out so you don't lose what you invested and so from that you grow because you bring through some kind of struggle you are forced to either grow or you or you kind of let or that deal fell apart and then if that deal falls apart it doesn't mean that all the deals are going to be that way it just means that maybe that deal wasn't meant to be you know the numbers weren't there yeah so it didn't work out a hundred percent I think what you do is you start creating systems I think you start creating a checklist one things that one thought about tonight was collateral files you wouldn't believe once you get Claro file and this space is definitely different is that once you make an indicative offer which basically means I'm priceless to begin with before I dive into the the asset fully seen collateral files pulling BP O's pulling the Oney which is like a mini title report is making sure servicing notes are in there would you find out what's going on with the borrower and the current servicer what the service was saying to the borrower are they interacting if they are interacting what kind of situations they got into and whatnot you also get pulled property inspections where if the property was vacant making sure it was winterized with north east if it was winterize more likely there's pictures of the property inside I'm good better and different you'd get an idea where it looks like and making sure there's a federal policy if you ever bought a house if you're new year for a boathouse you have to have a federal policy at a mortgage making sure that that was clean the owner just pulls from that point from when the house is purchased to now but it just tells you a lot like bankruptcy files it just tells you a lot information you make an offer you say okay now I found out more information about the servicing notes or property inspections or whatever you make a better decision with that information and bounced all people again its space is small just start talking to people you can kind of tell who's been around for a while he has a few people about the person more than five people know about the person they've been around for long enough all right so we're talking about the system's a little bit what's your system when you buy right you you speak out and speak to a seller you give them your expectations of what you're looking to do I'll get to spend ten thousand fifty thousand a hundred thousand whatever it is they send you over tape what's the first thing that you doing to break it down for someone who's trying to get started so you know the first thing you do is I mean make it simple I mean everyone knows what Zillow is who knows the last time it is obviously we don't count on us to Mozilla with a website that ice can't beat for a map view of all the properties in the area are selling for well the old Harper's accurate no but it's the best map to look at what's sold and I easily narrow down to either 12 or 24 months see what the market is if the house looks in a condo Plex it's very easy to prove the value the property if the properties in an area where that you know every house is a 3-bedroom 2bath 1600 square foot house in a certain area and they're all priced at you know in Ohio for 55 to 58 thousand you can I get a good number on it that you're gonna sites to find it taxes we're gonna sites we used as Nitra online to kind of dig into you want you can look for hold your dockets sometimes in some counties but you also get pulled things like you can get deep and look at permits and some of that you want it basically good idea is the house and a good situation and then we use Google Maps to kind of Google walk we call it and walk the street and see what the property looks like big maps if the big maps usually a Lou Newark map and look at them look at the house looks like make sure you walk down the street and walk back up we've seen a few properties and Google Maps where we turn the block and the property was absolutely gone from one view it was there and kind of find out that in a lot of two years the view changed on that street and the property was demolished right walk it all the stuff and then reach out the agents you know you all different sites out there you want to get a feel what it looks like out there not only just from the northeast actually people in like Alabama they're really really sweet and they'll do all this stuff for free just with the promise that getting the REO at the end it's amazing right so I would definitely get into value kind of plug in see what the value is look for house is the same bedroom same bathroom same square footage and whatnot this is after getting a tape from a legitimate seller that you know one of the key ways to see it with the seller you go to the county site look at the recordings you'll see having a mortgage ASM and you see who the last recording was typically it will show that seller if it doesn't you can ask seller or you guys want a boss who we can tell you that the diligent so or not all right most the time we could tell you there isn't a lot of sellers out there so if you're trying to find a brand new source it's very difficult to do that mm-hmm and so yes Dave days breaking it down for you you want to break it that you want to try to make it simple so you could so you could knock this thing out right that's when a seller sends you something and especially if it's going to be small level like you know it's called 10 loans unless they're expecting you to knock that out within two of the three days of your due diligence right or at least give them an indicative bid during that time yep you know you don't you don't want to be and this is important for this is an important mistake or that happens right for new people is they request all this information they request all these tapes but then they become known as the person that does not close so then those tapes stop coming the emails stop getting answered and that kind of stuff so you want it you want to be an action taker at a certain point and so if you have to break t....