Learn the Secrets of Passive Investing | Real Estate Notes Show

Episode: Learn the Secrets of Passive Investing | JKP Become the Bank @Sub2Empire Dave's Goals and Plans: - Started as landlord in 2005, moved away from landlord mentality - Got introduced to short sales and buying notes through hedge fund in 2011 - Bought tons of non-performing and performing notes primarily from banks for first 10 years - Recently got into seller finance sub2 world - Joined Nathan in 2020 to start podcasts and webinars to bridge gap between note buyers and note creators Nathan's Goals and Plans: - Did fix and flip in 2005-2007, became landlord but disliked it - Introduced to note world in 2008, attended first note conference in 2009 - Started buying non-performing notes in 2010, worked through hundreds over the years - Put together a fund for passive investing in notes - Took over diversified mortgage expo focused on networking, education, and deal facilitation Key Recommendations: - Ensure notes are properly underwritten with proof of borrower ability to repay - Verify RMLO (Residential Mortgage Loan Originator) compliance per Dodd-Frank requirements - Get proper RMO sign off on notes before buying to avoid legal issues - Have notes reviewed by underwriter to check language clarity and avoid contradictions - Don't buy notes with unfixable borrower underwriting issues (e.g., borrower income insufficient for payment amount) Topics Discussed: - Passive note investing strategies - Difference between note creation and note buying - Importance of proper note documentation and underwriting - Legal risks and foreclosure issues with poorly documented notes - How note creators can sell notes to note buyers for quick capital return - Earnest Investing fund structure and minimum investment requirements Guest Insights: - Banks write paper for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac with strictest standards, unlike creator notes which can have more flexibility - Note buyers can receive infinite returns by using spreadsheet analysis without touching own capital - Dodd-Frank compliance is critical in note industry and often overlooked by note creators - Common issues: improper note language, missing RMLO sign-off, and underwriting that doesn't document borrower ability to repay today we have uh we have our our special guests uh David putts and Nathan Turner from jkp Holdings and you guys may know these folks because they are everywhere man you guys are all over the place so we'll just clarify them real quick so Nathan and I do our podcast together we're not both jkp Holdings but we appreciate the shout out your jkp Holdings to me for one of our companies my goodness and and you know what I noticed that I I saw Nathan I never knew this about you but uh it says you have labeled Earnest living there I'm sorry Earnest investing ear investing yeah that's mine okay all right well hey man you learn something new about folks every day yeah so so how you guys I guess um you know I try to we try not to keep this scripted we have uh admittedly we do we do send out questions and things like that but uh um I guess I don't know why where you guys want to start you just want to jump in I I kind of want to know or at least have our audience uh uh discover a little bit more about you guys so um maybe a couple maybe maybe just do some introductions here Dave Dave tell us a little bit about yourself so I got started being a landlord in 2005 did not enjoy that quite a bit and 201 I got introduced to short sales and buying notes through a large hedge fund started doing that fulltime in 2012 uh as my investment strategy when I left the fund since then we've bought tons of non-performing notes tons of Performing notes primarily from banks for the first 10 years we didn't get into the seller finance sub2 world to quite recently um and then Nate and I joined up as teammates uh in 2020 to start doing podcasts and webinars together to bridge the gap between not buyers and not creators and everything in between um but yeah primarily our space has been moving away from being a landlord to a lanlord kind of mentality and buying the notes that you and your crew create that's awesome I yeah uh by the way guys if you haven't figured out the theme for today this is all about note buying all right I I failed to do that I you know sometimes I just get uh I had a terrible night's sleep and I just whatever complaint I can come up with I'll uh whatever excuse I can come up with I I'll do that um so Nathan what about you let's talk about uh let's talk about a little bit of your background cover the stuff that Dave didn't already uh discuss about you yeah it's you know it's interesting we've got kind of a similar background I I did Fix and Flip uh back in 056 07 and same thing I became a landlord for a little while figured out very quickly I did not like that at all uh I like the cash flow but I didn't like anything else about it so that uh I was introduced into the note World in 2008 I went to my first note conference 2009 uh started buying non-performers in 2010 and uh worked through same hundreds of them over the years um just recently two big developments we uh put together a fund uh so people can do this passively and also took over a diversified mortgage Expo uh which is just a place where people can come together it's all about networking education no sales uh just a place for everybody to get together and hopefully come together to do deals that's kind of the ultimate ultimate goal so Dave and I met after one of the conferences that we both attended do you remember what year that was Dave [Music] 20 I'm gonna guess 15 winner something like that yeah and we both knew we both knew a guy that's also in this industry and we're like oh yeah I know I know Jack and you're like yeah I grew up with him I'm like no way so that was kind of the connect then we ended up being on the same flight home so we we sat across the aisle I think it was and just chatted for four and a half hour flight yeah from Vegas back to Philadelphia yeah right yeah so I didn't know that that's news to me the the so so by all means uh the name of the fund how do people find out about your fund like what what um uh I'm sure I'm not sure what even what kind of investors you're looking for in your fund but um by all means you can plug that plug away at that anytime you choose so well okay yeah absolutely yeah I don't think we're doing anything illegal right if I just works yeah um go ahead go ahead well just gonna say yeah so it's Earnest investing uh we can take on accredited investors that's a 506c so we're limited by the powers of the B to accredited investors uh minimum investment is 50,000 we pay out an a % annual return easiest money you'll ever make right on is this um and so I know you explained a little bit but can you uh can you maybe dive just a little bit more into you know what type of fund what is what is the fund actually um what is the fund doing surprisingly we buy notes okay that purely I thought maybe there's something I know I I follow a couple of folks um a couple of different folks I got a a couple friends that have some funds and uh they're getting in some crazy like actually um you guys might know U ocg Matt Matt Owens with ocg yep he's actually part of our private call okay okay perfect yeah so you know what he's doing with the debt validation stuff and yeah very interesting I I uh who have thought it I'd have never thought that that would be so just to get started here one of the things I think we found with Note investors or note creators that you guys don't know you actually sell a note we've gotten that question a million times what do you mean I can actually sell a note that I created and it can be it can be sold multiple times not just one and you can be sold all kind of different ways of doing it you can create a first second you can create sell partials there's all different aspects to get your money back from your actual sub2 WRA deal that could be possible that to get money back in your pocket do more deals is easily possible with connecting note buyers in our industry and and that's our goal we want to cash you out so that you can go and do it again sell us another note do it again and again and again and again very interesting yeah so I guess maybe maybe let's let's walk through um what about your latest deal what's what's the latest one you're working on let's just let's concentrate on that for a minute I I say say one you probably have multiple going on but yeah but uh let's let's just pick one and let's let's make it really interesting I want something that's gonna like confuse me okay so I'll give you one that really hits home for you guys we're working at a seller right now who has about 25 notes be looking to sell in the first three or four he didn't know that you need an underwriter to underwrite owner occupy property right he did he didn't know that he didn't actually have an rmo sign ra those two facets are huge for us no fire now we hear all the time listen the think for performing for you know 3 months two months or whatever and the answer is well it's good until it's not and I think a lot of people in this world for creating notes have been through a downturn or foreclosure that they don't know what a defense attorney could do they don't know what a judge can do and the problem is if we buy this thing we know those kind of things could come up and we don't want to be stuck where a situation where the judge can do anything and everything and say wait I'm G to untwine this whole thing and this Bor stop paying what happened in the beginning it's just not worth our effort so making sure that when we're buying this thing we get the underr package that they prove the ability to repay is in there and that they had arm alow and that was a first step of buying a portfolio of 20 loans right now from this gentleman first step so okay so now we're getting now we're getting into legal stuff which uh which I I absolutely love I I kind of want to know the dirt on this yeah um so essentially what what is the what is the underlying the underlying issue I'm assuming is that the notes weren't written they're not they not well- written notes correct I mean like so um so in in a situation like that is that something that even though it's not well well written obviously you're you're G to get a discount on that package right we'll go back and forth here okay yeah okay for us it's all about risk management so yes because it wasn't written properly and there's there could be a couple of different issues a it could be that the language in the note itself was done improperly or insufficient or too much uh where there's too much in that node and then it ends up starting to contradict itself and and that becomes an issue so that's one issue and then the other side of that is like Dave mentioned going through an rmlo so that's a residential mortgage loan originator and that is a that's a dodf Frank thing if you're not familiar with dodf Frank oh boy you really need to be especially in your world um that's a big deal so that's something that can transfer to us so we're we're taking on extra risk if it hasn't been through an rmo if the paperwork was done wrong most of the time almost always uh these issues can be fixed whether that's whoever owns the note before they want to sell it they can fix it before they sell that will make it more attractive and more valuable or you can sell at more of a discount um and then we'll go ahead and fix whatever issues are out there obviously we prefer not to have to put in time effort and money into it uh so if it's done properly in the first place that's your best case scenario okay so would when you say I'm sorry no say addition to that real quick is that the underwriting thing is something that we can't reverse we' actually have to question write them all over again right we can fix modification in the language sometimes but if the borrower doesn't have the B repay we can't fix that right okay we can put them through theirm and then have that all be okay but if there's a situation where the the borrow wasn't properly underwritten that's a major issue okay all right so that clears that up so uh one thing I've always been curious about even I mean obviously there's different levels of uh um just like there are different levels of of contractors or quality contractors or anything do do you run into issues with with rml's um potentially I mean I would I would assume that there's a there's a Playbook right that they use to underwrite these uh these notes so do you ever run into issues do you ever run into issues with banks for example um you know I don't know yeah good question I'm not I'm not I'm not a note buyer so I'm just assuming that you've probably got some issues with certain Banks or oddly enough we don't banks are kind of structured to sell to the big boys the fany the Freddy so they actually not extremely tight so for the first 10 plus years of our us buying notes individually we never worried about any of this stuff right we didn't didn't care about this stuff because Banks wrote paper particular for the highest level where you guys can write different kind of paper that the banks can't and that's a very very big fashion for these not these borrowers right but what we're saying is you know you can become a no buyer which is we call it lazy investing right we're we look at spreadsheets all day long and write emails right or you can do the hard work like you guys are doing and get on in in part to an Infinity return and make money on money without touching any of your own Capital crazy but it could be happening but for us us buying it we're concerned with that risk level of when you create that note or as a note buyer can I foreclose legally without any issues right and if it an issue can I fix if I can't fix it I can't buy it it's not a discount to fix a borrower who makes 40 Grand a year and their payments three grand a month I can't fix that right right right yeah so so we talked the last time we chatted we talked a little bit about kind of our our model is uh is is much lower level than where you guys are at so like most of the um we don't even write notes per se we do a lot of contract for deed stuff um I love I love contract for deed just just for the simple fact that I'm I'm not giving legal title to someone it just protects us it keeps us more protected um but we do we have run in fact we've got one right now um that we are there's so there's so much margin in this thing that um that I think we might actually contemplate uh creating a note so so I guess do you have any recommendations for for the folks out there who might be just getting getting into this um doy doy yeah yeah just getting into it or um you know I I I would imagine the first recommendation is don't underwrite your own note right yeah that's the first one so so on the other end of that who are you recommending uh to to write your notes or is it just any RM loo like or is there a class of our mlo that we need to be concerned with I'm gonna say no Nathan do you have anything I mean we trust the professionals to do their professional job yeah the rmos I don't think it matters they've already they've received that designation from someone else so it's not like they can just say I'm an Armel and start writing paper so whatever qualification they've gone through to get that classification that's good I'm not concerned with one or the other okay we put on a class to what are the 14 points that make a note valuable to us note buyers and that's not only for creating notes for also buying them right some of the big points is under it and another thing is sticker for us get on so box is not writing not at 8% right because what you guys don't realize when you go to sell it no buyers discount based on the interest rate based on whatever return they're looking for so the higher the interest rate and the lower the term the less discount you're going to receive from us no buyer and if you have a lot of margin I would tell you to write a first and second right so you have a $200,000 property you're ined for15 I'd write a first at 140 and a second at 60 and then you can sell that first loan off at 130 to get small discount and you have 60 Grand second lean for next 253 years cash flowing we don't care right we're going to get a nice return and you guys have a cash flowing cow forever yeah yeah we uh we actually have uh this particular property that we're talking about we actually have a little bit greater margins than that it's uh probably it depends on who you talk to if you talk to Ken you know Ken's super super conservative and I'm ultra like I'm ultra like Fantasy Land guy so you know I think you know I think we've got 100K in this thing after it's all after it's all said and done I think we could I think we could have a 100K second sitting there just paying us year year after year beautiful um but yeah so we will be reaching out at sorry so you you mentioned like at the start of your question we're talking about a note like a note mortgage due to trust versus a contract for deed so let that's a fun one so let's just talk about that for a second let do it y it's fun because I'm a huge fan of contracts for deed uh that's I when I got started that's what I did uh we were in Ohio and Ohio they're called line contracts uh but that's that's how I got started in notes was was Selling Houses on terms creating paper with land contracts so I'm really familiar with them I've I've dealt with hundreds of them and I'm a big fan Dave on the other hand what's the big difference Nathan for those who may not know what is the big difference yeah big difference is who's on title that you know who's on first that's that's really the idea there is on contract for deed the lender is on title in a note in mortgage or deed of trust the occupant the one living in the house they're the one on title and foros happens with the CF without the Ohio exceptions stff like that most of the time con D can it's a forfeiture of contract it's not a foreclosure process that takes 18 months in Ohio right I get that I just don't like the liability of owning the property yeah that's the trade-off and and ultimately I don't I don't want to own property however for me that's a little different but yeah I again lazy investing don't want to own property yeah yeah kind of one of the things that we're I'm moving into right now in fact I've got a uh I'm actually doing this right now um I have an individual who is right there at like that 50% uh DTI you know their the debt to income is is right there it's she could probably go out and get a loan from A bank but uh for me it's it's a little I'm a little nervous about it I admittedly uh so what I am doing with her is I'm I'm using the contract for deed so sort of like a rental agreement where you know if she if she performs for the next 12 months I'm actually going to convert her to a note and I'm actually going to get her give her legal title to that property yeah and I think that's one thing that um I don't know there's many people that really I'm sure it happens every day but I just I just haven't really heard of anyone using that in that sort of uh in sort of that sort of fashion where you know you if you use it on a trial basis it's we had to uh we had to take a uh a property back on that we had on contract for E over here on the other side of the river from us and man I'll tell you what it was easy breezy it was I mean it wasn't it was in Illinois so it wasn't that much cheaper but uh but it was super simple I mean it was a couple of court dates and that was it it was done you mentionin here's something you to be aware of the note buyers right each state has their laws on what a licensing a not buyer owner creator has right right mhm and Illinois is one of the states where if you own a note you must be licensed the debt collector even if you use a licensed servicer protect you must be in so us note buyers there's certain States like Georgia will buy in because we can get a license easily Illinois Kentucky all these states are here that it just either long process or expensive to maintain it so if you only have two notes in there but it cost you four grand a year to register isn't worth us to buy the license so one of our 14 points is here's the states that we mostly Buy in create your notes no States for the better chance for not buyers to be buying your note of all right so what are what are a few of those States give give me an example I'm sure they're probably yeah right on my head just Kentucky Maryland uh Maryland goes back and forth we avoid North Carolina a lot of times PA the Northeast is just forget about it um California Kentucky Oregon Oregon a bit of a trend here I'm the coasts are bad right yeah yeah I'm seeing I'm seeing a uh seeing some similarities and another thing we to wor about is Usery law make sure you guys know what Usery law is and what the max limit is we don't need to be buying yeah yeah every State's a little different bring up a great point there um so yeah like Missouri Missouri Usery here is is 10% would a now I know you said earlier in the podcast that don't write your notes at 8% what does 10% look like to you guys better better I mean obviously obviously it's better but I'm saying like what give us your some of your criteria for um give me the ideal note give me give me what an ideal note looks like for you guys legal a legal one not a fake okay so um ideal note uh uh I would like it to be in Texas if I had the choice uh because if it goes bad if they quit paying Texas is the fastest place to foreclose if we need to go that direction which I hope we don't um but Texas I would like a minimum 10% down payment from the borrower um I'm going to buy that note at 25% of like investment to value of the property I want to make sure there's a a chunk of equity in there for myself um what am I missing Dave you want to be non Rural right yeah I don't want it something with less than 15,000 population where the county is less than 100,000 ideally here's another thing for you guys your your crew try get in the Bor to pay servicing fees yeah that's a good one because what happens is if that thing is 200 bucks a month or $300 a month we got to pay out 20 bucks and make sure it's flexible in your note agreement right make that part of your agreement that you literally have the Bor P servicing it's part of the underwriting process but allows us to buy it at a net yield versus subtracting that cost gotcha the language is servicing fees that the borrowers are responsible for servicing fees then it can transfer from server to Ser serer if that fee changes one way or the other then you're not stuck so right that would be the language I would use is they pay for servicing fees whatever that might be yeah and I see C and Linkedin mentioned it PA definitely needs licensing thanks Cindy so with the um with the rural thing I want to touch on that real quick U is that is that simply just because of uh I don't know I follow like I use Forex Factory to follow like all the the jobs data the housing data and all that stuff is that is that the reasoning behind the rural the decision on trying to stay out of the rural areas or like what what is the what is the logic behind that I don't want to sell it I don't want to be stuck with a house that I can't sell like again we're lazy we can't sit there for 90 days and if we have to fix it up find like contract local it's not worth our time energy and effort we want to be in and out of that property as fast as possible and if we're going to go to auction with it right we want to be able to sell it at the auction it reduces our ex and Dave and I both came up through non-performing notes so we joke about this but only kind of joking our expectation everything is going to default everything everyone's going to stop paying uh and then what so anytime we're looking at a note we're always looking at that worst case scenario because we've lived through it um so that's one of those things is can I resell this house if it's a town of 2,000 people Ah that's gonna be a lot harder than if it's 20,000 yeah yeah that that makes sense it's literally just I mean if you think about it it's literally just like owning an investor who buys house houses would would run into the same thing so you're just kind of transferring that that through I just I just want to make sure that was clear for everyone though you know because that could be like well what what does it matter if the if they're underwritten like the if the U the borrower is underwritten and they've got fantastic underwriting it's it's the actual property is the issue the location issue this is where it gets kind of funny because it with notes we're not buying the real estate we're buying the financing behind the real estate however we are interested in the real estate because there's a chance however higher not you know like there there's still a chance that we're going to end up owning that house so we are interested in the real estate and we do research on the real estate but actually we're not ideally we would never actually own that house we're we're just interested in the paper with the background being that property right so another point is uh when you're creating these notes you had the borrower paying servicing fee you had the rural part of it right you have the underrunning part of it right so those are all good if you're going to do your own servicing we recommend not doing it make sure you don't use a piece of paper or you know envelope and cash pictures we've seen apartments.com what about apartments.com yeah we won't name names yes we have someone who actually use apartments.com a track a record which doesn't help us at all and the borrower is not getting monthly statements s which they don't know anything again we're worried about I know most people who got in this space last four or five years everything's performing it's all pretty and wonderful the problem is it's all wonderful until foreclosure happens and that's when you face the music and everything you've done that you thought was right is wrong and that's the problem right that that's the piece of Education that we're trying to put forward now is if you do it properly you don't have anything to worry about and we don't have anything to worry about but if it's done improperly oh man it could get really ugly really fast yeah all right so give you some more points give you some more points yeah yeah I mean I'm I'm loving it like I could I just want to sit here and just listen I'm supposed to be the host of this thing I just want to listen it's fascinating I guess we're also used to hosting our own show too which is great right yeah so another thing is type of proper now this depends on the the investor just like the cfd versus mortgage note we don't get into buying raw land or mobile home in park we just don't do it right it's not something that we buy then we get involved with pass on it quickly as we get into there there's other people that do just not to say that it's a total deal breaker just it's a deal breaker for Dave and I it's just not something that we do all right yeah so um so no mobile homes no rural land yeah all right yeah another thing is um I would tell you guys is um seasoning is a questionable thing we table funding meaning the fact as soon as you close on you want funding it depends on the investment I want to see one or three months of payments Nathan will buy a table with arm alone underr yeah okay so again down to preference and that that's one of the cool things about notes is it's so much about just preference of seems very just very flexible like you can be a you know there's no no hard and fast rules um unless through your own yeah there are some hard and fast um but you know kind of the the adage is there's no such thing as a bad note just bad pricing so there is a price for your note even if it's done all wrong and even if it's in the wrong State and all the there's still a price for that note you might not love it but there is a price for it yeah yeah we actually have a chart that shows the you know expected discount of a note just based on yield you take a 7% note that's over 30 years and you say listen what do I what can I possibly get for this thing and the question is okay first making sure the term is if term is shorter it's great but I'm looking at my chart now it's just kind of an idea of what it looks like and what happens is if you have say a 30-year note at 8% and we want 14 expect us on a $100,000 note to pay 61 $62,000 to get our yield so you're going to take a 38% discount because the fact that 8% you get up to a 14 is that everyone's different of what their yield number is our rule thumb is shoot for a 14 and a 70% investment to value for a not buyer it's a we can go into the thickness of our calculators and just confuse a hell of you guys but it's not worth it all right not here that's so let's just say that you you knew a guy that really really this is all sounding really really fantastic don't don't have to be a you don't have to be a landlord you don't even have to be a you don't have to be on title it all sounds great yeah what is the what is the first step in the process of of learning about how to invest in notes where would you guys turn um you obviously you guys you guys uh are in the education space when it comes to notes too uh what's the very first step you would take uh if you were really serious about starting to invest in notes versus I'm GNA jump in real quick you guys have a huge space you guys have people that don't know each other and we're astonish by that because in our space we all know each other it's a very small I would tell you that one thing is Network yeah yeah I don't think that's I think that carries over into our space as well I like I can tell you U just kind of a little side note uh I have stopped all but stopped every once in a while my marketing campaigns like I don't I don't really Market anymore it's a it's all about uh it's all about networking so I can understand what you're saying there I I'm the benefactor of I was a benefactor of this deal I just told you about where I've got you know all this juice in this deal um and that was all through networking so I I would I would double down and say that's probably probably some of your best sources for for actually getting deals done is is through Network networking is one I'm talking free right YouTube and social media the next steps I would say is talk to as many people as you can and find the right training course that fits you and lastly what probably should be first is go to confidence you have the networking there you have social media there and you have the training all in one spot yeah you guys don't have nationwide conferen do you for sub two seller finance there are there's some there's some big people in the space I just um it's not I'm I'm one of those people I for for our for us and what we do I uh I don't I don't seek that stuff out I just don't like the big I don't like the influencer thing I just like to I just like to do my own little deals I like to you know so I'm I'm definitely one of those people that's uh I'm not looking to to grow like to grow in a in the sense of um or scale as they like to say I just like doing my deals I like I like spending time with my I actually like my free time you know so so I try and keep things small but you know the way that I understand you to come try it out because I would tell it's not as big and glamorous as like you think on stages and there's no lights and Glamour and it's 4 100 people and crowd yeah we're there so can't be that famous right yeah no that's great I mean I I I could you may uh you may see somebody that is on this podcast uh showing up to one of those one day yeah I didn't D back in May in Nashville I mean just yeah it's couple hundred hours it's a weekend in May you're going to meet other note buyers other note creators and the education you H at the housing market it's it's a weekend that I promise you'll get your money back oh yeah any any any reading materials that uh anyone that wants to uh even maybe some people are watching this or that watch this later on that don't even understand what we're talking about is there anything that any recommended reading out there or or do you just say just go out to YouTube and check it out or what there are books out there there are books there's not a ton there are some um maybe we ought to write one Dave I don't know it wasn't on the questioning I'm just really curious because uh there are there I just ordered a new Kindle so kind of the granddaddy if you're if you're really interested the granddaddy would be invest in debt yes Jimmy that would be the first one that's a really good one all right start and then I mean check out our Channel check out there are some other note trainings out there that's actually what I was going to say is somebody's getting started um networking is huge but also get some education because this is not real estate like I say so Dave's got a bunch of uh trainings and things that he does and I think they're pretty good maybe I'm biased but he doesn't even pay me to say that but uh but no it's worth it and you have to know what you're doing because it's it's not real estate you can get burned okay well let's do talk about uh talk about your training I mean what um how how do people get in touch with you first I mean I obviously I had um I had your website up here and somewhere there there she goes oh look at that all right yeah you can definitely go to the website there's a note buyers there training education there um social media um I would encourage you guys to just tune in ask questions there's no secret questions right and just find out what fits you if you're an ex landlord or ex note invest no Creator you're going to understand it's a little bit better than most people however as we say we're on the legal side we're on the paper side not the freaking motar I don't care what your refrigerator looks like I don't care what kind of kitchen cabins you got I don't care what color wall you all I care about is collateral good and the Bor going a paint it doesn't can I take the property back but there are things that are important like your service and things like your attorney who most people are scared of um understanding the the numbers behind note right why is term important why is interest rate important and things like that are really cral just to get the basic foundation and grow from there I would encourage you to check out any of and if you have a question about hey I don't see you don't cover this I got this one over here we can make a recommendation saying hey that's a great person we know them real well there are some people in the space we don't Rec but that's okay um I would tell you that you the reason for coming out with trainings is not to make money is that we've come across situations over and over and over and over again and it's like instead of me repeating ourselves let's just put into this quick video thing you know we have a very intense course if people want to get into it that mean a run um it's a 5we course but on a flip side we have a calculator training I have a beginner series which is like 100 Buck Right you want to just get the basics and then get bigger and bigger and bigger think the big difference between you guys and us is our calculators totally different right we're looking every state we're looking at cost of things we're looking at yield numbers we're not we're looking at value of the prod property but we can't get inside the property we can't look inside your property before we buy the note we can't talk to the borrower a lot of little things are a little different from us than compared to you guys where you're looking at that brick and motor I'm looking at the paper compared to the brick the next step is the due diligence is like you guys is probably the hardest process of everything it's a secret sauce and working with your servicers your attorneys feral management company all those kind of services are there um just to learn from and then I would say again tun to our podcast or videos a live show um on LinkedIn Facebook and just get to know the people you enjoy that you feel fit you and reach out to them ask questions um even if there's beginner questions we can refer you to people um but yeah I think the biggest thing is the beginner series just gets you the foundation of what is a note versus a mortgage we all say we're note investor some people say we're mortgage note investor there two different phrases just understand it and we play with the number for spreadsheet keeps yeah we're very similar in the sense that you know you guys are like I said you're not trying to make a ton of money off of this off of the the education side we're I'm we're the same way I do it for deal flow admittedly I do it for deal flow and I'm sure you guys are probably have some some sort of the same type of model you guys are note buyers so it probably probably um behooves you to to teach people how to do this correctly so very very cool I am uh I admittedly I am a little uncomfortable with this conversation right now because I am you since the last time we talked uh December I looked it up during December December yeah December 6 20123 yeah yeah that makes sense and I just uh I was uncomfortable with that conversation I was UNC I'm uncomfortable with this one it's probably pretty obvious uh usually this is a really easygoing type of thing we can help out right so so I would tell you one thing about your rap you rap sellers right is that we cannot ever buy your rap note without paying the underlying debt off we just don't right right it doesn't make sense to us to do that so understand if you're creating a note and the underlying debts 200 you rate the note for 210 you're not going to sell yeah you're going to hold that note for as long as possible and make and hopefully everybody pays if that property goes down in value and you have to for clothes and now you sell them for 280 and you have to pay back 300 you're in a bad yeah yeah that makes sense that makes a whole lot of sense all right well uh let's talk about let's talk about your uh all your different socials you've got uh I think you're probably pretty much like us I mean you probably jkp Holdings is probably you just probably go out and search it for search that name on do that I know Nathan is less on social media than I am he's doing a little better encouraging him right making some post which is great so again we're two different companies we just work together quite often just to can Network because we're collaborations as well as competing at the same time but most of the time we end of the day we just don't share our bidum because I don't need him stealing from me right but the other day we look at deal and say oh man I don't like this deal hey you interested and yeah I'll buy it I won't buy it because of different right we do have one big parameter too the value of the property has to be above 50,000 and we max out between 250 and 300,000 just because we just don't want to deal with the million dollar properties with the million dollar dollars in their pockets and deal with attorneys and the lower properties it's not enough margin for us to buy it if get to propose on it and make money on it the upb in the note doesn't matter to us right I don't care if you have 10 grand on a $200,000 house if I could buy it for four or five grand I'm happy do that right that's CRA makes a whole lot of sense I mean we you want you want to be where the uh where the most activity is obviously the the median income or the kind of the median price ranges makes make more sense I don't I don't buy I don't get involved in anything above here in St Louis you know 350,000 is H is about the is about the ceiling yeah for me unless it's a multif family I I'll do a multif family but yeah um but yeah very very very cool guys um I am incredibly intrigued and I think U I think you guys are going to be hearing from me for sure I would tell you if you are understand rap notes understand that kind of stuff and you want to get into this this is more of a borrow money at 8% go get 11 12 13 14% make the yield spread with knowing the fact that you may not have to worry about it again and you go back to C you can create your own notes that's a golden ticket create your own notes and hold it if you can borrow 8% create your own note 8% and you're leveraging it up I would do that in a second yeah those are the gold and things I see some more comments on LinkedIn from our friends Cindy that uh she recommended de with uh best best debt with Jimmy neor and uh she love mention about the yield chart I see Helen said very informative thank you guys followers and whatnot um we do stream live on LinkedIn Facebook um I would encourage you do that and Nathan uh I presume tickets are up right they're not the website's there but I I was just thinking about that this morning I need to roll over and make sure the 2025 tickets are available so I'll do that here in the next week uh so that those tickets are live and people can go and get their ticket can't wait to see everybody it's what a great event I mean I know I'm biased I know it's it's my own thing but I gotta first of all let's let's get the title of that event what's what's the name of that event so people can can actually search it so it's called Diversified mortgage Expo if you search that it'll pop up um it's in Nashville uh next year it'll be May 2nd and 3D and uh it's just a ton of fun we come together um like the night before we do an ax throwing tournament uh just as a networking fun activity for people to a total Icebreaker just for people to get to know each other and have fun uh ideally we're there to help people get to know and like each other that trust part that's up to you you guys got to figure out how to trust each other on that but uh but that's the whole goal is just get people to come together learn Network do deals awesome it's you're gonna see me there I think you're gonna see me there this year yeah I would encourage you to check it out I we have a couple other note creators who join us and they shocked about what they found and the information the knowledge and the fact they can sell more notes the more note buyers coming there but we enage you guys to come to us first but we understand the fact that if someone give you a better yield then we can you get it right we didn't even talk about partials partials is another way of selling a note where you can sell 180 payments instead of the 360 but it's okay there right that's where we go from I did post on the YouTube live uh the mortgage XO link directly um so people can see that um but other than that I would get jkp uh Earnest investing take a look on Facebook and Linkedin we're both active there we don't do much Tik Tok stuff but come on I'd love to see Nathan dancing that'd be awesome that'd be awesome I'll see what I can do not not into that kind of thing however um yeah Reach Out come talk to us we're we're not [Laughter] famous we're we're very open to whatever conversation uh I hope that that comes across we're we're definitely not intimidating type folks give us a call we love to chat yeah the only thing that's intimidating well I mean look this actually that was going to sound really bad see the only thing that's intimidating is the topic like it can be I think for for people that are just not in this world it's uh you know it's something totally fresh and new and it would be I think for someone like me I mean I understand what notes are I understand the process of buying and selling notes but I don't know that the intricacies that details of notes and it it terrifies me to be honest with you so it would be it would be uh probably a wise decision to uh to get a hold with some folks just like you and um and get in touch and definitely I think this Nashville thing is definitely going to be on my calendar so I will go check it out I encourage anyone watching anyone listening to this uh get a hold of these guys honestly they're uh I mean every time we talk I'm just I'm I'm still a little flustered you know like I just it's it's exciting but it's also uh it's also very very uh makes me very nervous so all right you guys have any closing words anything that you would like to um put out there anything you guys welcome to plug anything you like uh we we um certainly want to be maybe ask your famous last question n ah that let's do that that's a good idea so um for sub two and and what you're do all end every show we do this is Nathan's final question for every guest so go for it my man we want to know from the people that we're interviewing because I mean you're everyone we have on is an expert in their field what do you see coming down the pipe what do you see happening here in the next 12 24 months where's the economy going where's housing going what do you see coming down well I actually addressed this last week um my personal belief obviously obviously we don't have a crystal ball but um I think the I think the writing is on the wall um and I I don't get into politics and I refuse to get and I refuse to not have a conversation about politics but um I do believe that um you know depending on which way this this election uh slides this November um I think is probably not going to be the major factor in the housing markets I think that I think the big factor is going to be these interests like I personally believe if that if that we uh if we drop one point one percentage point I think we are going to have an absolute it's going to be chaos I think it's going to be mid mid 2021 2022 all over again I think we're going to have a ton of um ton of activity and I think we're going to see housing prices increase yet again I think that's what's going to happen um that's just my personal feeling about it I mean it just makes sense it's just pure economics at that point U but right now here in the St Louis area um and markets all across the country we are definitely we now we aren't at these these super low inventories like we were during that time period but we still I think in uh in I'm in St Charles County we we only have like a 45 day inventory here I me it's nothing so it's uh now we are a an area that's pretty highly desired but and I think I think St Louis County just across the the river here um I think they are sitting at like 75 days that's not a lot of vory man there's still a a major shortage in in housing so I think U I think there are people sitting on the sidelines right now that are just really waiting for a a drop in that Den trade I think I think the magic number is one point we drop one point I think it's going to go nuts we actually had Melody WR on weeks ago our last show he talked about she been 30 years in the space how the used to be a week to sell property is now pushing back there 51 on average PD Market um about all kinds of delinquent mortgage situations that are not being accounted about because the fact that they only pull from the op servicers that the spaces that you guys are in so that they're not even looking at those numbers so if people are interested in hearing with the marke editions that blew our minds Melody right we did an interview with her back in the sixth of August think it was and she really kind of looked at some stuff down and broke down numbers it was really interesting to hear the data and how what's being said out there is not always what's happening and straight data good yeah I know I mentioned uh I like to I I just I like to get alerts for I get alerts from Forex Factory I mean if you guys don't know what Forex Factory is it's just uh it's fantastic and a lot of the alerts that I get are not like they're coming from they're coming from the government the the most trustworthy Source on the planet right and so I uh I take it kind of with a grain of salt but I also think that the information that they're putting out even though I don't trust it it's what everybody else is seeing as well and um and so I think that has a lot of influence on on the decision making and and uh I don't know I we shall find out we shall find out we'll see what happens so it's gonna be an interesting time yes sir time for sure all right guys well hey I want to thank you very much for uh for joining us here I'm or joining me Ken Ken's gone but um absolute pleasure again talking to you guys I learned something new every single time and U I will see you guys here in Nashville you say that's in that's in May yeah May yeah perfect perfect May 2nd May 3d yeah yeah in Nashville it's the Diversified mortgage Expo yes yeah man now I gotta tickets live for sure okay I'll work what's funny what's funny is you guys you guys you like you made it perfectly clear early on that you know notes and mortgages are are two totally separate things but you named it Diversified mortgages interesting interesting now guys I I uh say again Nathan I I inherited the name but got it got it got it okay well guys thanks again really really appreciate it you guys enjoy your weekend um and uh I'll see you guys in May awesome thanks all right guys take care guys.